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Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
Phat
Member
Posts: 9739
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 316 of 391 (817326)
08-16-2017 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by ringo
08-16-2017 4:07 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Are you saying that if the minimum wage went up to $14.00 and the government (somehow) mandated $24.75 for your job, your union wouldn't ask for $28.00?
No, obviously not. I'm not in favor of the government mandating anything..(except perhaps a minimum wage) because if we allowed the wages to fall below ten dollars an hour, we would again have an exploited working class to a greater degree than we now have and you can bet the companies would also try and continue to get rid of the existing middle-class wages that we have fought so hard to get.

The republican (like petrophysics) would argue that individual initiative should be the road to success, but I've seen corporate bosses turn on each other and eliminate jobs from among their own.

Its a cutthroat culture of survival.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 4:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 4:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 317 of 391 (817329)
08-16-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Phat
08-16-2017 4:17 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

... if we allowed the wages to fall below ten dollars an hour...


Minimum wages in Canada aren't much above $10 an hour - and those are Canadian dollars; in US dollars it would be more like $8.

Phat writes:

...you can bet the companies would also try and continue to get rid of the existing middle-class wages that we have fought so hard to get.


That's the problem. You fight so hard for higher wages but you don't care about the people on minimum wage. Your only concern is that you don't become one of them. But if the minimum wage was higher, your employer would be less able to keep your wages down.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 08-16-2017 4:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 318 of 391 (817362)
08-17-2017 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by ringo
08-16-2017 3:07 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Have I said otherwise?

I got the implication.

The working class is still more down-trodden than the middle class. And part of the down-treading is by the middle class.

By how much? 1/4th? 1/100th?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 3:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 11:56 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 319 of 391 (817408)
08-17-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:18 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

By how much? 1/4th? 1/100th?


What's your question? How much more down-trodden is the working class? Or how much of the down-treading is done by the middle class?

Neither is easy to quantify but both are easy to see. High mortgage payments are less down-trodden than high rents - at least you can get your equity back. And the middle class want low prices for groceries, restaurant meals, etc. which requires low wages for the workers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:18 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:11 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 320 of 391 (817413)
08-17-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by ringo
08-17-2017 11:56 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
I was wondering how much of the down-treading you thought was caused by the middle class.

And the middle class want low prices for groceries, restaurant meals, etc. which requires low wages for the workers.

If the work isn't worth it then you shouldn't expect people to pay for it - that's not trodding someone down, that's just business.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 12:19 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 321 of 391 (817414)
08-17-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

If the work isn't worth it then you shouldn't expect people to pay for it...


"Worth it" how? Why is handling your food "worth" less than a middle-class job?

Whatever a middle-class job is. Phat is a cashier at Safeway and he's worried about being put on the same level as a cashier at the non-union supermarket down the street. How is he "worth" more?

New Cat's Eye writes:

... that's not trodding someone down, that's just business.


Where's the distinction?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:23 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 322 of 391 (817415)
08-17-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by ringo
08-17-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class

"Worth it" how? Why is handling your food "worth" less than a middle-class job?

If it is going to cost me $10 to pay someone to bring a plate of food from that side of the restaurant to this one, then I'll just go over there and grab it myself. That isn't worth $10 to me.

If that isn't an option, then I won't go to your restaurant... and then nobody is getting paid.

How is he "worth" more?

I dunno, I self-checkout and bag my own groceries.

Where's the distinction?

There's nothing wrong with doing business.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 12:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 12:33 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 323 of 391 (817417)
08-17-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:23 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

If it is going to cost me $10 to pay someone to bring a plate of food from that side of the restaurant to this one, then I'll just go over there and grab it myself. That isn't worth $10 to me.

If that isn't an option, then I won't go to your restaurant... and then nobody is getting paid.


And yet restaurants still exist. Somebody is paying.

So the question remains: Why is one server worth more than another? And don't say "experience"; there are waitresses with twenty years' experience still making minimum wage.

New Cat's Eye writes:

There's nothing wrong with doing business.


I asked you what the distinction is between doing business and treading somebody down.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:53 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 324 of 391 (817424)
08-17-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by ringo
08-17-2017 12:33 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
And yet restaurants still exist.

They don't charge $10 to carry a plate across the room yet...

So the question remains: Why is one server worth more than another?

I don't know why you're asking me that...

Some servers are better than others in how they treat customers and fulfill their duties - as a patron that is where the value is provided. Not all servers are the same quality.

The last two bars I went to were night and day in how the bartender treated me and did their job. The good one made a lot more money off me than the bad one.

I asked you what the distinction is between doing business and treading somebody down.

Just treading people down is wrong but doing business isn't.

That I gave the exceptional bartender a huge tip and the bad bartender a normal one is not me making the bad one downtrodden - they just suck at their job and are experiencing the consequences.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 12:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 1:24 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 325 of 391 (817437)
08-17-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:53 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

Some servers are better than others in how they treat customers and fulfill their duties - as a patron that is where the value is provided. Not all servers are the same quality.


But they're not paid according to their quality. As I said, a server with twenty years' experience is still paid minimum wage - and she's likely to make less in tips than the sexy blonde who was hired yesterday too.

New Cat's Eye writes:

Just treading people down is wrong but doing business isn't.


quote:
Ebenezer Scrooge: But it was only that you were an honest man of business!

Jacob Marley: BUSINESS? Mankind was my business! Their common welfare was my business!



quote:
Ebenezer Scrooge: What is your business here?

Spirit of Christmas Past: Your welfare.

Ebenezer Scrooge: My welfare?

Spirit of Christmas Past: Your reclamation, then. Take heed, rise, and walk with me.




This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:26 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 326 of 391 (817516)
08-17-2017 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by ringo
08-17-2017 1:24 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
But they're not paid according to their quality

More quality = more tip = more pay.

As I said, a server with twenty years' experience is still paid minimum wage -

Not necessarily if you're counting tips - and if so that's their fault.

- and she's likely to make less in tips than the sexy blonde who was hired yesterday too.

And the guy in the fancy place is making even more. So what? Maybe serving isn't a job that you can rely on as being a sustainable career...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by ringo, posted 08-17-2017 1:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 11:41 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 327 of 391 (817578)
08-18-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 11:26 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

More quality = more tip = more pay.


As I already pointed out, that isn't necessarily true - unless you count sexy blondeness as "quality".

And not every minimum wage worker gets tips.

New Cat's Eye writes:

Maybe serving isn't a job that you can rely on as being a sustainable career...


It would be nice if everybody had their choice of the perfect career, tailor-made for them. If that fantasy was true, everybody would be middle class and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But that isn't reality. In the real world, some people have to take care of children, elderly parents, disabled relatives, etc. so they can't have a leisurely education period in which they can prepare for the perfect life. They have to take whatever work they can get.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:26 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 11:59 AM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 328 of 391 (817581)
08-18-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by ringo
08-18-2017 11:41 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
that isn't necessarily true

It doesn't have to be necessarily true

unless you count sexy blondeness as "quality".

It certainly helps

And not every minimum wage worker gets tips.

So?

They have to take whatever work they can get.

Ok...

What's your point?

I'm afraid you've lost me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 329 of 391 (817586)
08-18-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by New Cat's Eye
08-18-2017 11:59 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

What's your point?

I'm afraid you've lost me.


Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. If that isn't your point, feel free to elaborate.

My point is that your point is wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 11:59 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 12:19 PM ringo has responded
 Message 334 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 2:43 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9739
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 330 of 391 (817587)
08-18-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo,to NCE writes:

Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. If that isn't your point, feel free to elaborate.
My point is that your point is wrong.

I might only add fairly but not preferentially.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:26 PM Phat has responded

  
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