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Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7517
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 346 of 391 (818101)
08-23-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
You lost me at force...

Well the aforementioned corporations are forcing people to work more for less.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 12:58 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 1:59 PM Modulous has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 347 of 391 (818102)
08-23-2017 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Modulous
08-23-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
No, corporate workers are not chattel.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Modulous, posted 08-23-2017 1:45 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Modulous, posted 08-23-2017 2:55 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7517
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 348 of 391 (818107)
08-23-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 1:59 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
No, corporate workers are not chattel.

I didn't say they were. I was pointing out that the word 'force' does not mean 'violence' it can mean 'given little to no alternative'.

They *could* withhold their labour - as they are not chattel. This could be by striking, working for smaller companies or starting their own. But that would force the corporations to offer more money for the labour. Or they might force the smaller companies out of business if they can.

Making the alternatives untenable is not something to intrinsically balk at. The corporate workers realistically cannot all work elsewhere - as there aren't enough alternate jobs, and those jobs might not pay much better because the corporate entities have such power over the market that they may in fact be offering the best salaries, even as they are decreasing. So their alternatives are striking - trying to force the corporations using the old 'workers control the means of production' concept - or they don't because they can't. The corporations do what they can to make striking untenable and to pay as little in wages as they can - so they are forcing low wages on the workers.

Right now, the corporations are using their power to force the suppressed salaries, even as profits climb. Balking at using your leverage to raise salaries but not balking at corporations using their leverage to lower salaries seems a little hypocritical, right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 3:13 PM Modulous has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 349 of 391 (818109)
08-23-2017 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2017 1:39 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

... it depends on the value of the work they are providing to the employer. And that is fair.


How do you decide that it's "fair"? From what I've seen, employers tend to pay the least they can get away with. That has nothing to do with fairness.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 1:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 3:20 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 350 of 391 (818111)
08-23-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
08-22-2017 4:33 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

There are a few of the working class who have pulled themselves up---by sheer effort---to become middle class.


Bullshit.

Phat writes:

I am not a champion of pulling the bottom up to the middle if it means the middle has to keep their position all on their own with fewer resources (wage increases) that are being diverted to the bottom.


You contradict yourself. You just said that your father pulled himself up on his own.

Phat writes:

All I am saying is not to ignore helping them simply to help the hungriest of the working class.


What a horrible thing to say. You don't want to help the hungriest? You should be ashamed of yourself, as a citizen never mind as a "Christian".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 351 of 391 (818112)
08-23-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Modulous
08-23-2017 2:55 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
I didn't say they were. I was pointing out that the word 'force' does not mean 'violence' it can mean 'given little to no alternative'.

Okay - I wouldn't call that force, it's just doing business, but your point is not lost.

They *could* withhold their labour - as they are not chattel. This could be by striking, working for smaller companies or starting their own. But that would force the corporations to offer more money for the labour. Or they might force the smaller companies out of business if they can.

Yeah, that's better - I just wouldn't call it force. Are all negotiations forced?

If I haggle with someone, am I forcing them to lower their price? I would say no.

The corporations do what they can to make striking untenable and to pay as little in wages as they can - so they are forcing low wages on the workers.

I just don't see it that way - that the workers are forced. It's an agreement, nobody is making them take the job. If they were forced into a job that'd be chattel.

Right now, the corporations are using their power to force the suppressed salaries, even as profits climb. Balking at using your leverage to raise salaries but not balking at corporations using their leverage to lower salaries seems a little hypocritical, right?

Both sides want to maximize their own gain - that's doing business. As long as it's mutually consensual, I don't consider it forced, and in that case do what you got to do to get that money.

I call that negotiating.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Modulous, posted 08-23-2017 2:55 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Modulous, posted 08-23-2017 3:48 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 352 of 391 (818113)
08-23-2017 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
08-23-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

We need stronger unions! We need to force these corporations to share more of the wealth!


Looks like you're more of a Marxist than I am. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm not in favour of corporate taxes at all. They should be used only in a carrot-and-stick approach - e.g. to incentivize environmental friendliness. They should not be used as a major source of revenue.

I believe that the working class and middle class should pay the bulk of the taxes - and they should be paid so that they can afford to do so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 11:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 4:21 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 353 of 391 (818114)
08-23-2017 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by ringo
08-23-2017 3:09 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
How do you decide that it's "fair"?

Everyone has the same opportunity to make their own way. Nobody is being made to do something against their will. It's a mutually consensual agreement.

What's unfair about that?

From what I've seen, employers tend to pay the least they can get away with. That has nothing to do with fairness.

What makes it unfair?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 354 of 391 (818116)
08-23-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 3:20 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

Everyone has the same opportunity to make their own way.


Obviously not. Some people have parents to put them through college; others have to take care of their sick parents while taking whatever work they can get. That's only one example.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 3:20 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 3:37 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 355 of 391 (818117)
08-23-2017 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by ringo
08-23-2017 3:30 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Some people have parents to put them through college; others have to take care of their sick parents while taking whatever work they can get.

Uh, that's them making their own way...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 356 of 391 (818119)
08-23-2017 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 3:37 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:

Uh, that's them making their own way...


And it isn't fair....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 3:37 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 4:12 PM ringo has responded
 Message 364 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-24-2017 11:21 AM ringo has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7517
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 357 of 391 (818121)
08-23-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 3:13 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Okay - I wouldn't call that force, it's just doing business, but your point is not lost.

But in English that is what force can mean. The politician was forced out of his seat, the chess player was forced to resign, the debater was forced to concede the point, the small business owner was forced to sell his interests in the business, the child was forced to go church on Sunday.

Yeah, that's better - I just wouldn't call it force. Are all negotiations forced?

If you end up doing something you didn't want to do by circumstances or the actions of others - not just physical strength, it is perfectly normal to say you were forced to do it.

Negotiations can end with a mutually acceptable agreement, but its also typical for negotiations to involve 'leverage'. The notion of leverage doesn't mean someone got a stick and fulcrum and pried you away from your position. They metaphorically used a lever to metaphorically force you from your position.

If I haggle with someone, am I forcing them to lower their price? I would say no.

Probably not. But if you are an influential celebrity you might leverage your influence to get a price much lower than the seller would want to avoid the bad consequences of an influential person's opinion might have on sales as a whole.

In that case, you might say the seller was forced to sell at a price he would not be happy with. Normal haggling ends with both parties satisfied, even if one would prefer cheaper and one prefer more expensive.

I just don't see it that way - that the workers are forced. It's an agreement, nobody is making them take the job. If they were forced into a job that'd be chattel.

The need to pay for food, rent/mortgage, healthcare etc is pretty strong. A person might not be forced to work a particular job, but in general they are forced to work. And if all the salaries are basically the same for that job then they are forced, by this circumstance, to accept that salary or thereabouts. That circumstance is influenced heavily (but not exclusively) by large companies with their large influence on the job market.

Both sides want to maximize their own gain - that's doing business. As long as it's mutually consensual, I don't consider it forced, and in that case do what you got to do to get that money.

I call that negotiating.

Negotiating and using leverage are not mutually exclusive. But now you understand Phat was not talking about physical coercion. There is, as Marx put it, a struggle between the classes: Workers who want to be paid as much as possible, and the Capitalists who want to pay as little as possible. The Workers have get a job, the capitalists don't have to hire any specific individual. A struggle comes out of this, and it can result in a reasonable outcome. But it doesn't have to - one side can come out better than the other.

One way to negotiate is to refuse to take a given job. But doing this on an individual basis may not be effective - and in the meantime the bills are coming in. This need for money now - or soon - is the leverage the capitalist class exerts. This is one their forcing tools. This is why the term 'wage slavery' is sometimes used. It isn't chattel slavery, but a worker's need for a wage packet is usually immediate. It is rare that someone can go for several months without any income without serious ramifications. So they need to sell their labour. The workers do have one point of leverage: they control the means of production. Hence if they cooperate to withhold that labour all at the same time - hopefully they won't have to go for a long time without a wage before the capitalists have to relent and offer better salary or whatever.

So again

quote:
We need stronger unions! We need to force these corporations to share more of the wealth!

We need to work together to negotiate a bigger slice of the pie using the leverage of negotiating in a bloc rather than independently. This is just as much 'just doing business' as anything the corporate world gets up to. So you are no longer 'lost' at the word 'force'?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 3:13 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-24-2017 11:32 AM Modulous has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 358 of 391 (818123)
08-23-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by ringo
08-23-2017 3:41 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
are you saying it isn't fair that my parents could have sent me to college while yours couldn't?

You may also know that I take care of my 94-year-old Mom with Alzheimer's at partially my own expense. Is that fair?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:41 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 4:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 359 of 391 (818124)
08-23-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by ringo
08-23-2017 3:18 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
If the wealthy own or control 90+% of everything and benefit the most from corporate profits, why not hold their feet to the fire also? The alternative is to tax the middle class at higher rates so that they essentially have little more than the working class. You think I was horrible for saying not to focus exclusively on the hungry, but I was being metaphorical. Yes, some of us had it easier than others, but by excluding the responsibility of the rich to contribute you are forcing the middle class to become overburdened. Don't you see that?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 4:29 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13889
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 360 of 391 (818125)
08-23-2017 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Phat
08-23-2017 4:12 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:

are you saying it isn't fair that my parents could have sent me to college while yours couldn't?


Of course it isn't fair. Nobody said life was fair but at least try to understand what fairness means.

Phat writes:

You may also know that I take care of my 94-year-old Mom with Alzheimer's at partially my own expense. Is that fair?


See above.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 4:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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