Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 116 (8752 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-28-2017 12:41 PM
124 online now:
Coyote, DrJones*, PaulK, XJTA (4 members, 120 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: DeliverUsFromEvolution
Post Volume:
Total: 809,160 Year: 13,766/21,208 Month: 3,248/3,605 Week: 34/556 Day: 34/54 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
89
10
1112
...
19Next
Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 272 (767380)
08-28-2015 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:27 PM


Re: Reply button problem
That one is fine, right reply button. Thanks.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:27 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 137 of 272 (767381)
08-28-2015 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by PaulK
08-28-2015 5:27 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"Has been demonstrated to be false. You do not have the proof."

That's is your opinion only Paulk .... Satan's coming "antichrist" will make Antiochus IV look like a country bumpkin

One who gained position by fraud and default .... and he failed to put humpty dumpty [Alexander's holdings] back together again .... he could not and did conquer Egypt

The little horn will [Daniel 11:40; 11:42] .... at the time of the end still pending

No symbolism .... literal reality

And unless you are willing to modify your demeanor in a discussion between us, I will no longer respond to you

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:27 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:45 PM Straightshot has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 138 of 272 (767383)
08-28-2015 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
08-28-2015 5:32 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"That one is fine, right reply button. Thanks"

I do not use any other button for replies, so there must be something else going on

Let me know again when this does not work


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 5:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12688
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 139 of 272 (767384)
08-28-2015 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:32 PM


Re: Reply button problem
Unless you are claiming to have proof that you have held back it seems to be a clear fact.

Certainly you have offered no justification for your assertion that Daniel 11 suddenly switches from talking about Antiochus Epiphanes to talking about somebody else living thousands of years later. Why on earth should a "skeptic and a realist" believe that ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:32 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:49 PM PaulK has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 140 of 272 (767386)
08-28-2015 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by PaulK
08-28-2015 5:45 PM


Re: Reply button problem
Did you hear what I said to you Paulk?

.... and do you know what this means?

Daniel
11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: "because it is yet for a time appointed."

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:45 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 6:09 PM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12688
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 141 of 272 (767388)
08-28-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:49 PM


Re: Reply button problem
My questions seem to be adequately respectful under the circumstances. Can you answer them ? Even if you refuse I have shown sufficient evidence to cast serious doubt on your claim to have proof.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:49 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 10:38 PM PaulK has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 142 of 272 (767400)
08-28-2015 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
08-28-2015 6:09 PM


Re: Reply button problem
Believe that I can, but will not for you unless you change your attitude

I intend to address all of the details of the prophetic scriptures as I see fit

So you will have to look for them as I move forward .... your choice

.... and actually you have shown nothing of the kind as you tell above

The preteristic view of Bible prophecy attempts to push large portions of future unfulfilled prophecy into the past in order to protect preconceived organizational dogmas

The methodology used is to switch from the literal to the metaphorical/allegorical interpretation when convenient

The preteristic behavioral adventure is to systematically destroy the Lord's more sure word of prophecy

.... not a good idea

I do not recommend the practice

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 6:09 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2015 5:15 AM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12688
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 143 of 272 (767413)
08-29-2015 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 10:38 PM


this is a debate site
quote:

Believe that I can, but will not for you unless you change your attitude

Why should I believe that you can produce proof when you have already failed to do so?
In a discussion you cannot expect points that appear to be self-evidently false to be unquestioningly accepted. If you are not ready to provide the support, then it is better to refrain from making the assertion.

Also, I will point out that you have still not dealt with the evidence of Daniel 8 identifying the "little horn" as a Diadochi ruler. An omission that I find quite telling.

And what is wrong with my attitude?

quote:

The preteristic view of Bible prophecy attempts to push large portions of future unfulfilled prophecy into the past in order to protect preconceived organizational dogmas

Whereas you clearly attempt to push prophecy into the future to protect your dogmas.
I don't consider that a better approach, nor one that should be needed if Biblical prophecy were genuinely easy to understand and 100% accurate.

quote:

The methodology used is to switch from the literal to the metaphorical/allegorical interpretation when convenient

A methodology I do not employ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 10:38 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Straightshot, posted 08-29-2015 7:15 AM PaulK has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 144 of 272 (767420)
08-29-2015 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by PaulK
08-29-2015 5:15 AM


Re: this is a debate site
Yes you do Paulk

[Daniel 8:10]

Interpret Zechariah 14 for the forum

Your response will reveal much about you


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2015 5:15 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2015 7:34 AM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12688
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 145 of 272 (767423)
08-29-2015 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Straightshot
08-29-2015 7:15 AM


Re: this is a debate site
quote:

Yes you do Paulk
[Daniel 8:10]

Now you are just being silly. I interpret the vision given in Daniel 8 (verses 3-12) symbolically. I do not think that goat isliterally a goat, the horns are literally horns or that the little horn literally grows to enormous size and knocks stars down from the sky.

I interpret the explanation of the vision (20-25) as conveying the meaning of the vision

Any sensible person would do the same. There is no shifting between metaphorical/allegorical interpretation from convenience. The shift comes directly in the text.

quote:

Interpret Zechariah 14 for the forum

Quite frankly, to do a proper job of it would take more work than I have time for right now, so I must decline.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Straightshot, posted 08-29-2015 7:15 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straightshot, posted 08-29-2015 12:48 PM PaulK has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 146 of 272 (767446)
08-29-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by PaulK
08-29-2015 7:34 AM


Re: this is a debate site
Good for you Paulk .... to each his own

I interpret the literal ..... as literal

And the symbolic is always defined within the immediate context, or in some other related scripture(s) .... literally

Once one learns the relationship between the symbol and its definition .... it is a slam dunk

The Lord is not a God of confusion


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2015 7:34 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 3:02 AM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12688
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 147 of 272 (767502)
08-30-2015 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straightshot
08-29-2015 12:48 PM


Re: this is a debate site
quote:

The Lord is not a God of confusion

Then why are you so confused about the identity of the "little horn"?

Daniel 8 is really quite clear in identifying him as Greek, associating him with the Diadochi states, and even tells us that the prophecy takes place in the time of the Diadochi states.

You would think that if the "little horn" was a modern Muslim leader we might at least see the rise of Islam alongside Alexander's empire, and an acknowledgement that the Diadochi states fell more than 2000 years earlier.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straightshot, posted 08-29-2015 12:48 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 8:00 AM PaulK has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 148 of 272 (767503)
08-30-2015 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
08-30-2015 3:02 AM


Re: this is a debate site
For the forum:

Here is the break between the rule of Antiochus IV, the last king of the north [Daniel 11:21-25] ....... and the next king of the north [the little horn] at the time appointed [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7; Micah 5:5-6; Revelation 13:1-4]

Not the same rulers, but living centuries apart with different profiles

Do not let Paulk fool you

He is preteristic in his thinking and meddles with interpretive attempts to relegate unfulfilled prophecy into the past

This kind of thinking also does the same thing with the future time of Jacob's Israel's trouble [Jeremiah 30] and the coming Islamic Caliph's invasion and occupation of Israel [Daniel 11:41; Zechariah: 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 11:2; 12:6-12:14]

The preterist claims that all of the above taken together occurred at the Roman incursions in 70 AD

Anyone reading the above scriptures can see that all of the events taken together simply have never taken place in the past

And this is why Paulk refuses to interpret Zechariah 14 .... the entire passage is of future unfulfilled events .... these things cannot possibly be relegated to any historical setting

So the preterist has to commit selective metaphorical/allegory in an attempt to destroy the prophet's future predictions

And this behavior is the confusion of preterism .... drawing the line between passed fulfilled prophecy with that which is yet to come in the wrong place

Even to the extent that the Lord has already returned by placing this event into the past .... in 70 AD

Preterism on this scale is dangerously skewed and the hallmark of most of the membership of the professing church today

Here is the Lord's warning to the same

Revelation
3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Any who have been deceived by the dogma of preterism living at the time of His next intervention to bring judgment are at great risk and these will be tossed into His unprecedented wrath upon the earth

.... and the same will face the severe persecutions of Satan's beast and false prophet

If any reading this post end up in the coming tribulation, know that your repentance and turning to the Lord will be required .... otherwise you will be rejected by Him and lost forever with no recourse [Revelation 20:11-15]

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 3:02 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 8:32 AM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12688
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 149 of 272 (767506)
08-30-2015 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 8:00 AM


Re: this is a debate site
A very revealing response.

You will note that 'Straightshot" completely evades the issue of Daniel 8

Obviously he knows that I am telling the truth - and that is why he wants you to ignore me. Or rather to ignore the Bible.

Which really says quite enough about him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 8:00 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 9:54 AM PaulK has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 150 of 272 (767512)
08-30-2015 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
08-30-2015 8:32 AM


Re: this is a debate site
Daniel 8 is what it is Paulk .... a revelation of the little horn of the time of the end still pending

Now .... you give your interpretation of Zechariah 14

If you do not do this, then we will see quite enough about you to begin with

.... and if you do .... if you can .... this will tell the forum much about you and what you are up to

So you see I am not telling the forum to ignore you .... this is your chance to be recognized

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 8:32 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 11:04 AM Straightshot has not yet responded
 Message 152 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 11:15 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Prev1
...
89
10
1112
...
19Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017