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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 308 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 151 of 274 (767514)
08-30-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 9:54 AM


Re: this is a debate site
Back to the OP

Many interpreters today have speculative theories that are not correct renderings of Revelation 13 with respect to the buying and selling environment of the beast's economy

His followers will accept his marking because they will want to identify with him and will follow his buy/sell economy

The same will also impose this upon all humans living in the region of the beast's Middle Eastern kingdom, and those who refuse to worship the beast and at the same time refuse the mark will be vulnerable to to the killing by him, his false prophet, and followers

Much of what is speculated today about chip implants, personal ID numbering, etc is bogus and not supported by Revelation 13's view

Those who refuse the beast's ID marking will be outcasts and threatened with death .... this is happening as we speak in the Islamic Middle East

ISIS Muslim terrorists are engaged in the same practice already

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 9:54 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 152 of 274 (767515)
08-30-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 9:54 AM


Re: this is a debate site
quote:

Daniel 8 is what it is Paulk .... a revelation of the little horn of the time of the end still pending

That's what you say. Daniel 8 however tells us that it is about the time of the Diadochi kingdoms succeeding Alexander. That you refuse to engage with the text in this point tells us all we need to know about you.

quote:

Now .... you give your interpretation of Zechariah 14

If you do not do this, then we will see quite enough about you to begin with


Of course this is just another of your evasive tactics. Zechariah appears to be a more complex work and one I have not studied. But that has nothing to do with Daniel 8, as we both know. Daniel 8 is easier to understand - since the vision is explained - and I have done rather more study relevant to understanding Daniel.

No, it is your refusal to address the text of Daniel 8 with anything but denial that is telling. Daniel 8 is the subject of discussion. Zechariah 14 is an obvious diversion.


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25865
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 153 of 274 (767517)
08-30-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by PaulK
08-30-2015 11:15 AM


the little horn of Daniel 8
Some prophecies have more than one fulfillment. I've always understood this little horn to have two prophetic fulfillments in the future, so I looked up a commentary and found David Guzik agreeing with that understanding, also pointing out that Luther and Calvin disagreed about it. Luther sees two fulfillments, Calvin only one:

b. The vision refers to the time of the end: Gabriel assures Daniel that this vision has to do with end times, with the latter time of the indignation.

i. This is a problem for some, because we see that the prophecy of Daniel 8:1-14 was fulfilled in the days of the Medo-Persian and Greek Empires, especially in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes. The terms time of the end and latter time of the indignation commonly refer to what we think of as the end times, not events fulfilled more than a 100 years before the birth of Jesus.

ii. The answer is that though this prophecy is fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes it also has a later fulfillment in the Antichrist, referring to the time of the end. Antiochus Epiphanes is sometimes called the "antichrist of the Old Testament." He prefigures the Antichrist of the end times.

iii. Just like Antiochus Epiphanes rose to power with force and intrigue, so will the Antichrist. As he persecuted the Jews, so will the Antichrist. As he stopped sacrifice and desecrated the temple, so will the Antichrist. As he seemed to be a complete success, so will the Antichrist. "From what Antiochus did to Jews in his day, therefore, one may know the general pattern of what the Antichrist will do to them in the future." (Wood)

iv. "Greece with all its refinement, culture and art, produced the Old Testament Anti-Christ while the so called Christian nations produce the New Testament Anti-Christ." (Heslop)

c. Some see this Antiochus and Antichrist connection, and some do not. Martin Luther wrote, "This chapter in Daniel refers both to Antiochus and Antichrist." John Calvin wrote, "Hence Luther, indulging his thoughts too freely, refers this passage to the masks of Antichrist."


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Faith
Member
Posts: 25865
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 154 of 274 (767519)
08-30-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by PaulK
08-30-2015 11:15 AM


The little horn of Daniel 7:8
Also, there are two little horns mentioned in the book of Daniel, one in Daniel 7:8 which rises in the fourth empire, the Roman Empire, as well as the one in Daniel 8:9 which rises in the third empire, or Greece founded by Alexander.

Commentary by John Gill identifies the little horn of Daniel 7 as the Pope, following the Reformers:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:

I considered the horns,.... The ten horns of the fourth beast; these the prophet particularly looked at, took special notice of them, carefully observed them, their number, form, and situation, and pondered in his mind what should be the meaning of them:

and, behold; while he was attentive to these, and thinking within himself what they should be, something still more wonderful presented:

there came up among them another little horn; not Titus Vespasian, as Jarchi; nor the Turkish empire, as Saadiah; nor Antiochus Epiphanes, as many Christian interpreters; for not a single person or king is meant by a horn, but a kingdom or state, and a succession of governors; as by the other ten horns are meant ten kings or kingdoms; besides, this little horn is a part of the fourth, and not the third beast, to which Antiochus belonged; and was to rise up, not in the third or Grecian monarchy, as he did, but in the fourth and Roman monarchy; and was to continue until the spiritual coming of Christ; or, until his kingdom in a spiritual sense takers place; which is not true of him: and since no other has appeared in the Roman empire, to whom the characters of this horn agree, but antichrist or the pope of Rome, he may be well thought to be intended. Irenaeus (k), an ancient Christian writer, who lived in the second century, interprets it of antichrist; of whom having said many things, has these words:

"Daniel having respect to the end of the last kingdom; that is the last ten kings among whom their kingdom should be divided, upon whom the son of perdition shall come; he says that ten horns shall be upon the beast, and another little horn should rise up in the midst of them; and three horns of the first be rooted out before him; and, "behold", saith he, "in this horn were eyes as the eyes of man", &c.; of whom again the Apostle Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 declaring together the cause of his coming, thus says, "and then shall that wicked one be revealed &c."''

and in a following chapter (l) the same writer observes,

"John the disciple of the Lord in the Revelation hath yet more manifestly signified of the last time, and of those ten kings in it, among whom the empire that now reigns (the Roman empire) shall be divided; declaring what shall be the ten horns, which were seen by Daniel; saying, "the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet, &c."; therefore it is manifest, that of these he that is to come shall slay three, and the rest shall be subject to him, and he shall be the eighth among them;''

and Jerom on the place says, that this is the sense of

"all ecclesiastical writers, that when the Roman empire is destroyed, there shall be ten kings who shall divide it among them; and an eleventh shall arise, a little king, who shall conquer three of the ten kings; and having slain them, the other seven shall submit their necks to the conqueror:''

who he further observes is not a devil or demon, but a man, the man of sin, and son of perdition; so as that he dare to sit in the temple of God, making himself as if he was God: now to the Roman antichrist everything here said answers: he is a "horn", possessed of power, strength, authority, and dominion, of which the horn is an emblem; a "little" one, which rose from small beginnings, and came to his ecclesiastic power, from a common pastor or bishop, to be a metropolitan of Italy, and then universal bishop; and to his secular power, which at first was very small, and since increased; and yet in comparison of other horns or kingdoms, but little; though, being allowed to exercise a power within others, is, or at least has been, very formidable: this "came up among" the other horns; when the northern barbarous nations broke into the empire and set up ten kingdoms in it, this little horn sprung up among them; and while they were forming kingdoms for themselves, he was contriving one for himself; they rose at the same time and reigned together; see Revelation 17:12,

before whom, there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots; before whom three kings or kingdoms fell, and were subdued as in Daniel 7:20 which, according to Mr. Mede (m), were the kingdoms of the Greeks, of the Longobards, and of the Franks; but, according to Sir Isaac Newton (n), they were the exarchate of Ravenna, the kingdom of the Lombards, and the senate and dukedom of Rome; or, according to the present bishop of Clogher (o), the Campagnia of Rome, the exarchate of Ravenna, and the region of Pentapolis, which were plucked up by Pipin and Charlemagne, kings of France, and given to the pope; and were confirmed to him by their successor Lewis the pious, and is what is called the patrimony of St. Peter; in memory of which a piece of Mosaic work was made and put up in the pope's palace, representing St. Peter with three keys in his lap; signifying the three keys of the three parts of his patrimony; and to show his sovereignty over them, the pope to this day wears a triple crown:

and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man; in some monstrous births there have been eyes in the knees, and in the belly above the navel (p); but never was there known such a monster as this, to have a horn, and eyes in the horn; horns some monsters have but not eyes in them: these may design the pretended sanctity and religion of the pope of Rome or antichrist, who, though a beast, would be thought to be a man, a religious creature; or his pretended modesty, humanity, and courtesy, when he is all the reverse; or rather his insight into the Scriptures he makes pretension to, setting himself up as an infallible judge of them, and of all controversies: though they seem better to design what he really has than what he pretends to; and may denote his penetration and sagacity, his craft and cunning, and sharp looking out to get power and dominion, temporal and spiritual; and his watchfulness to keep it, that it is not encroached upon, and took away from him; and also all means and instruments by which he inspects his own and others' affairs; particularly the order of the Jesuits, which are his eyes everywhere, spies in all kingdoms and courts, and get intelligence of what is done in the councils and cabinets of princes: how many eyes this horn had is not said; nor is it easy to say how many the pope of Rome has; he has as many as Argus, and more too, and these sharp and piercing:

and a mouth speaking great things as that he is Christ's vicar on earth, Peter's successor, head of the church, and universal bishop; that he is infallible, and cannot err; that he has all power in heaven, earth, and hell; that he can forgive sin, grant indulgences, make new laws, and bind the consciences of men; dispense with the laws of God and men; dispose of kingdoms, and remove and set up kings at pleasure, with many others of the like kind; see Revelation 13:5.

(k) Advers. Haeress, l. 5. c. 25. (l) Ibid. c. 26. (m) Works, B. 4. p. 779. (n) Observations on Daniel, p. 75-78, 80, 88. (o) Inquiry into the Time of the Messiah's coming, p. 28. (p) Vid. Schott. Phyica Curiosa, l. 5. c. 25. p. 711, 712.

If the Pope is the antichrist then Straightshot's Middle Eastern antichrist is ruled out. But there is an antichrist figure in that part of the world too. Lot of different things need sorting out.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Straightshot
Member (Idle past 308 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 155 of 274 (767529)
08-30-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
08-30-2015 12:00 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
"Of course this is just another of your evasive tactics. Zechariah appears to be a more complex work and one I have not studied. But that has nothing to do with Daniel 8"

You must study all of the Lord's prophetic Paulk .... all of it fits together perfectly

Pieces left out out will throw one off track

Zechariah 14 has much to do with the time of the end and the little horn of Daniel's visions .... but nothing to do with Antiochus IV of the ancient past


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straightshot
Member (Idle past 308 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 156 of 274 (767531)
08-30-2015 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 1:30 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
"If the Pope is the antichrist then Straightshot's Middle Eastern antichrist is ruled out. But there is an antichrist figure in that part of the world too. Lot of different things need sorting out."

The little horn will not be who you think Faith, wrong origin, wrong religion, no army, not stationed north of Israel in the Middle East, etc. .... the RCC is basically defunct today .... and you would have to speculate Pope into the visions .... many have done the same

The Pope is simply not this one [Micah 5:5-6] .... he does not have 10 kings to rule over, will not arise from Syria/Iraq [the Levant], and does not cut off heads today

And there are no double references in the Lord's prophetic word .... all events stand on their own, past and future

If true this would generate confusion .... if you study long enough and with diligence you will learn this truth

.... similar events, but never the same

If you will follow my future postings on this subject I will demonstrate many more reasons why the Pope and his church are not in the visions at all

Here are two passages of scripture for you to begin [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38] .... these are all Middle Eastern countries today and they are predominantly Muslim .... the most "antichrist" religion on the planet

"God has no Son" they say .... and that Jesus did not die for the sins of mankind

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 1:30 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 157 of 274 (767537)
08-30-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 1:30 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
quote:

You must study all of the Lord's prophetic Paulk .... all of it fits together perfectly

Since Daniel 8 clearly does not fit into your interpretive scheme you have a problem. And your evasion tells me that you know it.

quote:

Zechariah 14 has much to do with the time of the end and the little horn of Daniel's visions .... but nothing to do with Antiochus IV of the ancient pasT

So we should throw out Daniel 8 because it contradicts your interpretation of Zechariah 14? I don't think so. Even if there were a genuine contradiction - and I don't believe that there is - that wouldn't be a convincing argument.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 25865
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 158 of 274 (767541)
08-30-2015 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 1:35 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
This thread has become too confused, you again answered someone else by clicking the Reply to me for instance, so I'm not going to get more involved in it.

I agree that there is also an antichrist figure yet to emerge in the Middle East according to other prophecies, but the prophecy of the little horn rising out of the Roman Empire is definitely the papacy. And the papacy does have an army and is a nation unto itself, though if the Pope recovers the power he used to have in the Holy Roman Empire, which is very possible given the development of the EU and the push for a World Order, all the necessary trappings will no doubt be available.

It's ridiculous to call the RCC defunct when it has 1.2 billion members around the world, not quite as many as Islam but close.

Also no Muslim can be the antichrist because the antichrist presents himself as a Christian, putting himself in the place of Christ among Christ's people. That there is to be a Muslim antichrist type I think is also true.

The Reformers did an excellent job of proving from all the relevant scriptures that the papacy is the antichrist system, which I discovered after I'd considered various other interpretations, so you aren't likely to be able to argue me out of it.


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Straightshot
Member (Idle past 308 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 159 of 274 (767575)
08-30-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
08-30-2015 2:18 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
"So we should throw out Daniel 8 because it contradicts your interpretation of Zechariah 14?"

Still waiting for your interpretation of Zechariah 14 ................


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Straightshot
Member (Idle past 308 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 160 of 274 (767576)
08-30-2015 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 4:11 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
"This thread has become too confused, you again answered someone else by clicking the Reply to me for instance, so I'm not going to get more involved in it"

You must be easily confused

I always either address the immediately above my response .... or I direct the posting to the person by name, or with a snippet of their posting .... read more carefully

As for the Pope and His church .... no power .... a man in a white dress and a funny looking hat

.... and most of his constituency numbers are falling, are not Christians in the first place, and are either being forced out of their habitations or killed by Muslim terrorists

The RRC churches in Europe are empty and being converted to mosques .... and it is the Muslim religion that is even larger today and growing as we speak

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 4:11 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25865
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 274 (767578)
08-30-2015 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 4:18 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
Look at your messages 155 and 159. They are replies to me, because you used the Reply button to posts of mine, although you quote PaulK and give your answer to him. You even replied to a post of your own to answer someone else. You keep doing this. I read carefully enough so I can figure it out, but what you are doing is very confusing and so far you haven't even checked to find out what I mean.

I disagree with you about the Pope but I don't want to get into a debate about it right now.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straightshot
Member (Idle past 308 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 162 of 274 (767579)
08-30-2015 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
08-30-2015 4:26 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
This posting follows yours and you should know that I am addressing .... you .... all one has to do is to look at yours .... and then mine to see this

Why would you think that I will always respond immediately after another's posting?

.... not the way the world works .... I post when I have time .... which maybe after another has responded between

Pay attention to the one I am addressing and their postings .... I always give a reference

And I would have to guess, but it appears to me that you may be conveying the SDA teaching related to the Pope and his following

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 08-30-2015 4:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 163 of 274 (767581)
08-30-2015 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 4:11 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
Sorry, but I'm not going to waste time on your rabbit trail

We both know that a straightforward reading of Daniel 8 identifies the "little horn" as a Diadochi monarch living more than 2000 years ago. And obviously you cannot refute that because you keep evading the issue.

So even if you can show that Zechariah 14 contradicts that all you've shown is that either Zechariah or Daniel is wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 4:11 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25865
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 164 of 274 (767582)
08-30-2015 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 4:32 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
I'm following the Reformers, not the SDA.

You are completely missing the point about the Reply button. I guess you just refuse to listen to anything I say. Fine. I really don't want to be in this discussion at this point anyway.


This message is a reply to:
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Straightshot
Member (Idle past 308 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 165 of 274 (767584)
08-30-2015 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
08-30-2015 4:54 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
"I really don't want to be in this discussion at this point anyway."

OK with me

And I would suggest to you that my posting, even though it may be directed to another .... is really about what is said, and not necessarily the individual

I am posting on the forum and will address any subject of interest for all to see regardless of personality

Teaching the Lord's more sure word of prophecy is a universal task as I see it


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