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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13113
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 106 of 274 (767300)
08-28-2015 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Straightshot
08-27-2015 10:14 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
You do realise that your argument with Faith is entirely different from trying to convince a skeptic ? You'll both put the belief that prophecy cannot fail ahead of the Bible, just as you put your belief that the bible claims to be the literal word of God ahead of the fact that not one book of the Bible actually makes that claim for itself,

Even in your replies to Faith I can see obvious problems that a skeptic familiar with the Bible would know and that Faith will not discuss. For instance the fact that the "little horn" of Daniel 8 is quite clearly Antiochus IV.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 10:14 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26288
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 274 (767311)
08-28-2015 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Straightshot
08-27-2015 9:59 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Continuing with my attempts to answer your posts. I think I'll just leave the Middle East prophecy on the note of general agreement with you about what is to happen in that part of the world, without getting in to details, mainly because I don't study prophecy in such detail. I read various studies of prophecy and get general ideas about it.

It would help for the sake of your credibility though if you had a church affiliation, because lone wolves are generally untrustworthy. But even if you don't belong to a church, being persuaded by a particular line or school of prophetic interpretation would help. My orientation is mostly Calvinist, but all the Protestant Reformers contribute to it. Prophecy is certainly one proof of the authenticity of the word of God.

I see that PaulK points out that you and I would agree on the basics of the truth of the Bible and of Bible prophecy, so that you are not talking to a skeptic here. The questions I raise have to do with the different interpretations of prophecy by a believer. There are lots of prophecy teachers on the internet already, mostly addressing believers. You should get plenty of skeptics here though if it's skeptics you'd prefer to address.

It's hard to know what the trend is at EvC at any given moment. The main debate between evolution and creation has died down more than anything else. This drives people to the faith threads and the politics threads. But even these may not be as active as they used to be. However, someone with a strong point of view could revive things on a given topic. You may yet attract the kind of arguments you prefer.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 9:59 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 9:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 108 of 274 (767318)
08-28-2015 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
08-28-2015 4:42 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"You do realise that your argument with Faith is entirely different from trying to convince a skeptic ? You'll both put the belief that prophecy cannot fail ahead of the Bible, just as you put your belief that the bible claims to be the literal word of God ahead of the fact that not one book of the Bible actually makes that claim for itself,
Even in your replies to Faith I can see obvious problems that a skeptic familiar with the Bible would know and that Faith will not discuss. For instance the fact that the "little horn" of Daniel 8 is quite clearly Antiochus IV"

First of all I do not argue about the Lord's Word .... I simply discuss the same with others and if the dialogue turns into argument I will leave it

Bantering over interpretive position serves no good purpose and actually makes a mockery out of the Lord's Word in front of those who need to seek and find His salvation

What I will do is teach the prophetic scriptures .... biblical truth is built upon the foundation of the Lord's prophets, His apostles, and His own revelations .... these things I do not have to argue over [Ephesians 2:18-22; 2 Peter 1:16-21] .... the same are the only sources of truth

And I have to tell you that the little horn Daniel 7; 8; 11:36-45; 12:7 was not Antiochus IV .... the exact profile of this king of the Seleucid Empire is here [Daniel 11:21-35] .... so accurate that the skeptic claims it must have been written after the fact and not in advance

The arising of the little horn is still pending as we speak today .... the next northern king of the same region [Syria/Iraq]

Antiochus IV did not puck up 3 other Middle Eastern kings, replace them, and rule with the finished set of 10 [Daniel 7:7-8; Revelation 17:12-14; 18:16-18]

He did not rule with 10 other kings who will destroy the "great city" of MBG

He did not succeed in conquering Egypt

He did not go forth and sweep away [destroy] many in the far east and far north from outside of his northern kingdom [Daniel 11:44]

He did not die in Israel [Daniel 11:45] .... Antiochus died while fighting a war in Persia from a deadly disease [Iran today]

He did not make war against Jesus and loose at the battle Armageddon [Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 11:45; Joel 2:10; 3:9-21; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 12; 14; Revelation 14:14-20; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

All of this the coming little horn will do just as the prophets tell

You may not place any value in these things and or think that all are of the past, and not future events that will take place on the earth consummating in the visible appearing of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ for which all true believers are looking for with great anticipation

.... my comment would be that you are missing much, but people do .... what people do

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 10:03 AM Straightshot has responded
 Message 111 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 10:40 AM Straightshot has responded
 Message 116 by ramoss, posted 08-28-2015 1:24 PM Straightshot has responded
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 3:13 PM Straightshot has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 109 of 274 (767319)
08-28-2015 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 9:53 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"Continuing with my attempts to answer your posts. I think I'll just leave the Middle East prophecy on the note of general agreement with you about what is to happen in that part of the world, without getting in to details, mainly because I don't study prophecy in such detail. I read various studies of prophecy and get general ideas about it."

Nothing wrong with your position taken as I see it .... most do the same

Some of us are called to interpret and present the Lord's prophetic word which is a very significant and core part of His entire message to humans


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 9:53 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 10:22 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 110 of 274 (767320)
08-28-2015 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 10:03 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"I see that PaulK points out that you and I would agree on the basics of the truth of the Bible and of Bible prophecy, so that you are not talking to a skeptic here. The questions I raise have to do with the different interpretations of prophecy by a believer. There are lots of prophecy teachers on the internet already, mostly addressing believers. You should get plenty of skeptics here though if it's skeptics you'd prefer to address.

It's hard to know what the trend is at EvC at any given moment. The main debate between evolution and creation has died down more than anything else. This drives people to the faith threads and the politics threads. But even these may not be as active as they used to be. However, someone with a strong point of view could revive things on a given topic. You may yet attract the kind of arguments you prefer."

I interpret and teach the prophetic scriptures and related to skeptics and all others alike regardless of their particular religious persuasions and or their human philosophies [Romans 8; 2 Timothy 4:2; 2 Peter 1:1-21]

I will get to the significant matter of creation vs evolution soon, so you might want to look for my contribution .... the biblical account of creation is to be trusted and true .... no doubt

Which thread you would suggest that I find and use to address the issue at this time?

It would be good if this forum could continue and flourish .... a great format, well designed, and looks likes it has attracted many in the past

.... there are few left on the Internet today which is cluttered with every branding of professing Christianity imaginable .... unfortunately most are of extreme apostate origins, confusing, lukewarm, misleading, and hollow

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 10:03 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 12:10 PM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13113
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 111 of 274 (767322)
08-28-2015 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 9:53 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
I'll give a fuller reply later. However I have a simple question. Do you agree that the Greek king of Danel 8:21 is Alexander? If not, then who do you believe it to be?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 9:53 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 11:16 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 112 of 274 (767326)
08-28-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by PaulK
08-28-2015 10:40 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"I'll give a fuller reply later. However I have a simple question. Do you agree that the Greek king of Danel 8:21 is Alexander? If not, then who do you believe it to be?"

No doubt .... by scripture and by the historical record

Alexander conquered the Middle East in about 12 years from the Mediterranean to the borders of India .... and then he died at an early age and never ruled there, neither did Athens

The indigenous populations of the Middle East remained and at the dividing of his holdings and it is the two larger rival kingdoms of the north and south of Israel that are the focus of the following balance of Daniel 11 .... the two thighs of the image recorded in Daniel 2 the same

Antiochus IV was the last Seleucid king of the northern divide [Daniel 11:21-35]

.... the northern thigh of the image of Daniel 2

Then the vision moves to the time of the end still pending and the view is of the little horn of Daniel 7; 8; 11:36-45; 12:7

All of the prophets reflect this breach in the time line in their visions between past fulfilled prophecy .... and the balance remaining

This is the same breaching between the ending of the 69th week decreed for Israel and .... the beginning of the 70th still out in front of us

Also the same between the two thighs ..... and the next two iron legs of the image .... one north and one south of Israel at the future time of the end

The king of the south [Egypt] will resist [push at] the little horn [the last king of the north ... Syria/Iraq today] .... and the little horn will attack and add Egypt to His Middle Eastern kingdom [Daniel 11:40; 11:42]

.... this same offset rivalry is developing in the Middle East as we speak as a prelude to the fulfillment of the vision .... the radical Muslim Islamic State of the north and Egypt

The little horn will then proceed to divide the land among 10 other Middle Eastern kings of his choosing ruling over the kingdom of iron and clay [feet and toes of the image] [Daniel 11:39]

....and this little horn was clearly not Antiochus IV, but the final coming king of the north at the ending of this present age during the 70th week decreed for Israel still pending

The 70th week and time of Jacob's trouble will be the time of pressuring Israel to turn to their Messiah and King Jesus Christ [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38; Daniel 12:1-4; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

This period is also the same at the Lord's coming hour of trial and judgment upon an intransigent unbelieving world to punish for refusing to believe the truth about Him and who He is [Psalms 2; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6:12-17]

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 10:40 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26288
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 113 of 274 (767332)
08-28-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 10:22 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Just a few responses for now:

This site considers itself to be for debate, so coming here to teach but not debate isn't going to be accepted.

I think you should start your own threads for your topics because that way they will stand out. Proposed New Topics is where you do that. Describe how you want to approach the topic and an admin will promote it when it is clear enough. As for this thread, you started out answering the OP (opening post) by jar. I don't know why he hasn't been here for a while but he may come back and respond to your post to him and that discussion could continue here.

You should learn some of the codes for things like creating a quotation box. You can use the "peek" button at the lower right of each post to see how that person used codes for whatever purpose interests you.

Also, you often hit the wrong "reply" button to write your posts: hit the one at the bottom of the post you are replying to so that person's name will show up at the top right of your answer.

EvC really is a beautifully designed site, I agree.

I think it would be interesting to have a good discussion of prophecy here so I hope you will stay a while.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 10:22 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 12:49 PM Faith has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 114 of 274 (767340)
08-28-2015 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
08-28-2015 12:10 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"This site considers itself to be for debate, so coming here to teach but not debate isn't going to be accepted"

I prefer to present and discuss rather than to create argumentation which is the typical run of the mill debating on most forums today .... especially when it involves the Lord's Word

We will see how things go


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 12:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 1:17 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26288
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 115 of 274 (767341)
08-28-2015 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 12:49 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Well, the software for the site is for sale I understand so maybe some Christian group would like to acquire a copy and start their own discussion board with it.

To some extent you can keep it to a discussion by how you set the tone yourself, but no promises. The debate here can get pretty ugly and I'm often on the verge of leaving myself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 12:49 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3039
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 116 of 274 (767344)
08-28-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 9:53 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Well, you have to remember that the Book of Daniel was not written by Daniel, but was rather written between 164bc to 160 bc as a polemical against Antioch IV. It describes him perfectly until it's actually written, then things were incorrect.

It has nothing to do with Jerusalem, or this Jesus fellow at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 9:53 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 2:19 PM ramoss has not yet responded
 Message 118 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 2:23 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26288
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 117 of 274 (767353)
08-28-2015 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ramoss
08-28-2015 1:24 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Yeah, you've bought the lies of the modern "scholars" who couldn't believe in prophecy or anything supernatural so redated Daniel to suit their own prejudices rather than the obvious internal evidence of the book itself.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ramoss, posted 08-28-2015 1:24 PM ramoss has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 118 of 274 (767355)
08-28-2015 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ramoss
08-28-2015 1:24 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"To some extent you can keep it to a discussion by how you set the tone yourself, but no promises. The debate here can get pretty ugly and I'm often on the verge of leaving myself"

I believe an adult discussion is the best policy and more fitting when representing the Lord's Word

.... and I can get really ugly if moved to do so

I am currently and have been posting on the "ugly" boards for a long time

Just put me in a basket with a preterist and I can and might just bury them for all to see .... however, there is a time for every thing under the sun

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ramoss, posted 08-28-2015 1:24 PM ramoss has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 2:29 PM Straightshot has responded
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:08 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 119 of 274 (767356)
08-28-2015 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 2:23 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"Well, you have to remember that the Book of Daniel was not written by Daniel"

Well .... would you think that the book of Daniel has been conveyed by another? [John 1:1-14]

Most likely not

.... but that is OK with me


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 2:23 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 2:33 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 120 of 274 (767358)
08-28-2015 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 2:29 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"Yeah, you've bought the lies of the modern "scholars" who couldn't believe in prophecy or anything supernatural so redated Daniel to suit their own prejudices rather than the obvious internal evidence of the book itself."

Yeah .... you are a very presumptuous dude son

No trash on my bookshelves .... just the good one

Tell me about the obvious internal evidence of the "book itself" .... give it your best shot

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 2:29 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:17 PM Straightshot has responded

    
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