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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 121 of 272 (767363)
08-28-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 9:53 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
To start with I note that you gloss over Daniel 8, which should be surprising since it is the obvious starting place.

In Daniel 8 we start with the Goat representing the Greek empire of Alexander and the divided states that sprang from it. It is from one of these that the little horn springs (9)
We are also told that the prophecy takes place in the latter days of the Greek kingdoms(22) leaving no doubt that the "little horn" is a ruler of one of these states. Since the "little horn" is depicted as subduing Judah, setting himself up as equal to God, doing away with the Jewish sacrifice and so on, there is no doubt that it is Antiochus.

With regard to Daniel 11 aside from your strange idea that the prophecy suddenly changes subject, jumping thousands of years into the future with no hint in the text all I can say is that is hardly a straightforward reading - if it even qualifies as a reading.

In the case of Daniel 7:7-8 I will simply point out that Antiochus was preceded by seven Seleucid kings, briefly by the usurper Heliodors and technically by two of his nephews (the first Demetrios the heir, the second another Antiochus in whose name he ruled for a while). Seven and three who could be counted as "uprooted"

As for other books of the Bible it may well be true that they are not speaking of Antiochus but that does not mean that Daniel 8 is not. Certainly they cannot overrule the text of Daniel 8 that tells us that it is Antiochus.

So, all in all you don't really present much of a case. A straightforward reading of Daniel 8 tells us that it is Antiochus. It will take more than questionable (at best) interpretations of other verses - especially from other books of the Bible - to show otherwise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 9:53 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 4:15 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24833
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 272 (767364)
08-28-2015 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 2:23 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
I could probably bury a Preterist myself. I don't recall running across any of those here but you 'll find every kind of unbeliever and apostate or liberal "believer" here otherwise.

Straightshot, again you hit the wrong reply button. It gets confusing. It looks like you are replying to ramoss but the content of your post is a reply to me. You seem to be skipping posts and hitting the reply for the post after the one you intend to answer or something like that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 2:23 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 217 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 123 of 272 (767365)
08-28-2015 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
08-28-2015 3:13 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"To start with I note that you gloss over Daniel 8, which should be surprising since it is the obvious starting place."

This king was certainly not Antiochus IV, but the future little horn of Daniel 7:7-25 .... the exact career of Antiochus is found here [Daniel 11:21-35] .... given in advance

The following describes the coming little horn, a king of the northern Middle East at the time of the end still pending

Daniel
8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Antiochus IV simply did not fulfill the above profile 100% for many reasons

Similar actions yes, but not all that the little horn will do which Antiochus did not do:

Daniel
8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Neither did Antiochus IV fulfill the events of Daniel 7:7-25 .... and certainly not those of 11:36-45; 12:7

The little horn and king of the north in these visions will be completely possessed by Satan's beast of Revelation's unfolding .... this is evidenced by comparing both Daniel and Revelation accounts .... in Revelation the little horn has become the beast

Sorry, but I can not agree with your rendition of the little horn which is not validated by the related prophetic scriptures, and by the historical record

Your major error as I see it is the failure to recognize the breach of silence in the prophet's visions between the ending of the Seleucid kingdom of the north just before the first century .... and the beginning of the little horn's kingdom still pending

This same lapsing is also between the Lord's cutting off and the beginning of His next intervention to bring judgment

The period of His dispensation of grace lies in the breach still ongoing at this time

And many historical and significant events upon the earth the same .... you will not find any of them in the prophetic visions [70 AD, the crusades, inquisitions, French revolution, WWI, WWII, etc.]

But the day is coming when He will no longer tarry [Romans 11:25] .... and the unfulfilled visions of His prophets will roll

Could be before this day is over ...............

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 3:13 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 4:40 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24833
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 272 (767366)
08-28-2015 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 2:33 PM


Reply button problem
"Yeah, you've bought the lies of the modern "scholars" who couldn't believe in prophecy or anything supernatural so redated Daniel to suit their own prejudices rather than the obvious internal evidence of the book itself."

UYeah .... you are a very presumptuous dude son

Straightshot, I said that to ramoss so you are calling ME presumptuous. Do you mean to say that to me? Please pay attention to which Reply button you are pressing. You pressed the one to my post thinking you are answering Ramoss.

He was saying that the Book of Daniel wasn't written during the time it claims to be written and we have to take that into account. I said he's bought the lies of the modern scholars who redated the book because they couldn't believe in prophecy. They redated it to AFTER the events it prophesies to eliminate the prophecies.

No trash on my bookshelves .... just the good one

I have lots of stuff on my shelves besides the Bible, but mostly by Christians who are exposing the errors of apostates and modern scholars and cultists.

Tell me about the obvious internal evidence of the "book itself" .... give it your best shot

There's lots of internal evidence that it was written during the time of Nebuchadnezzar and the empires that followed him, and the redating of the modern scholars turns that into garbage.

PLEASE pay attention and use the Reply button to the post you are actually replying to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 2:33 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 4:29 PM Faith has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 217 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 125 of 272 (767368)
08-28-2015 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
08-28-2015 4:17 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"I could probably bury a Preterist myself. I don't recall running across any of those here but you 'll find every kind of unbeliever and apostate or liberal "believer" here otherwise.

Straightshot, again you hit the wrong reply button. It gets confusing. It looks like you are replying to ramoss but the content of your post is a reply to me. You seem to be skipping posts and hitting the reply for the post after the one you intend to answer or something like that"

Notice that I paste and place "quotes" around a significant part of poster's response ... then I respond

My response was to ramoss

I do not use the quote button on the forum .... or on any forum for that matter

Reason .... to avoid the unnecessary repeating of scads of the details of a previous posting of any poster

Look for your specific statement in quotation marks .... followed by my response

And I would hope that you could defend what you believe against preteristic teaching .... the Christian message boards are overrun by the same today

This dogma is held by most of the professing "church" today, and has been for centuries

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:44 PM Straightshot has not yet responded
 Message 128 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 4:44 PM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 126 of 272 (767369)
08-28-2015 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 4:15 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Again, Daniel 8 clearly identifies the little horn as a Diadochi ruler. The Diadochi states are long gone - their "latter days" passed before Jesus was born. Thus the prophecy failed.

And really Antiochus was a proud, crafty and succesful ruler, promoting his own worship as Zeus, so he fits the description in Daniel 8 rather well (especially if we allow that 8:10 is certainly symbolic)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 4:15 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24833
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 272 (767370)
08-28-2015 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 4:29 PM


YYou Re: Reply button problem
You are missing the point, Straightshot. You criticized what I wrote thinking you were criticizing Ramoss. You MUST use the right Reply button. REPLY button. I said nothing about the Quote button.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 4:29 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 128 of 272 (767371)
08-28-2015 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 4:29 PM


Re: Reply button problem
quote:

I do not use the quote button on the forum .... or on any forum for that matter

Reason .... to avoid the unnecessary repeating of scads of the details of a previous posting of any poster


There is no "quote" button on this forum, for precisely that reason. Moreover you have been using the "reply" buttons - but belonging to the wrong posts. So even if you had mistaken the "reply" button for a "quote" button you would have been using it.

I would also suggest using the quote tag or the as tag instead of quote marks, as most posters already do. Both make quoted text stand out much more.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 4:29 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:01 PM PaulK has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 217 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 129 of 272 (767372)
08-28-2015 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by PaulK
08-28-2015 4:44 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"Again, Daniel 8 clearly identifies the little horn as a Diadochi ruler. The Diadochi states are long gone - their "latter days" passed before Jesus was born. Thus the prophecy failed.
And really Antiochus was a proud, crafty and succesful ruler, promoting his own worship as Zeus, so he fits the description in Daniel 8 rather well (especially if we allow that 8:10 is certainly symbolic)"

Sorry, I have to disagree with your view .... and Daniel 8:10 is not symbolic. but literal

The little horn will have the supernatural power to do these things .... he will be empowered by Satan's beast of the abyss, a fallen angel like Satan [Revelation 9:11; 11;7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

Satan's beast is not human, but a fallen angel who will shake the earth to its very foundation during the coming tribulation .... billions will die in his wake

This destroying angel will do Satan's bidding on the earth at the time of the end and all that he sets out to do will succeed .... one who can make war far beyond any human invention of warfare [Revelation 13:4]

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 4:44 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:04 PM Straightshot has not yet responded
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:11 PM Straightshot has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 217 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 130 of 272 (767373)
08-28-2015 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:01 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"You are missing the point, Straightshot. You criticized what I wrote thinking you were criticizing Ramoss. You MUST use the right Reply button. REPLY button. I said nothing about the Quote button."

I am using the "right" reply button next to the "peek" button

And when I review the posting it looks right to me on my screen

So where is the button to use?

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:01 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 5:24 PM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 131 of 272 (767374)
08-28-2015 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:01 PM


Re: Reply button problem
Your personal opinion is hardly sufficient to convince the mildest of skeptics. Especially in the face of evidence that you refuse to address. It seems that your claims were empty boasting after all.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:01 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:18 PM PaulK has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 217 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 132 of 272 (767375)
08-28-2015 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by PaulK
08-28-2015 5:11 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"It seems that your claims were empty boasting after all"

Now I see that you are resorting to character judgment and I have to tell you that this kind of behavior will not get response from me going forward


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:11 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:27 PM Straightshot has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24833
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 272 (767377)
08-28-2015 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Reply button problem
You seem to be skipping posts and using the Reply button to the post after the one you intend to reply to.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:04 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:27 PM Faith has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 217 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 134 of 272 (767378)
08-28-2015 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
08-28-2015 5:24 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"You seem to be skipping posts and using the Reply button to the post after the one you intend to reply to"

OK .... what about this one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 5:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 5:32 PM Straightshot has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 135 of 272 (767379)
08-28-2015 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:18 PM


Re: Reply button problem
well then, let me make the point without any character judgement.

Your assertion that:


I am a skeptic and a realist and need proof for understanding and acceptance for most anything .... I have it .... no doubt .... the Bible is His Word

Has been demonstrated to be false. You do not have the proof.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:18 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:32 PM PaulK has responded

    
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