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Author Topic:   Is there Biblical support for the concept of "Original Sin"?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 240 (591476)
11-14-2010 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by kbertsche
11-14-2010 10:52 AM


kbertsche writes:
I am suggesting that there are potentially a number of possible meanings, and we shouldn't let our preconceived ideas as to meaning influence our understanding of what the text says.
I'm suggesting that your preconceptions about original sin are colouring what you think the text says. You're adding layers to the plain reading of the text.
Genesis 3 is a simple story, a children's story. It seems bizarre to try to twist it into a doctrine. That's why I've suggested that we should look elsewhere for support but even you admit that there isn't any.
Looking for deep meaning in Genesis 3 doesn't add to the support for original sin. It just stretches the support thinner. Thinner supports are not stronger.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by kbertsche, posted 11-14-2010 10:52 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by kbertsche, posted 11-15-2010 8:55 PM ringo has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 240 (591479)
11-14-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by kbertsche
11-13-2010 10:16 PM


Two Questions
You have all presented your case for why original sin should be questioned and why the Bible can and should be read in context. The conclusion, if accepted, is itself disturbing.
1) If there is no such thing as original sin, why did Jesus need to come and why all the hoopla about Him coming back? The whole idea of God blessing us seems to have less need..less meaning now.
But that's not a huge problem. It just means that we now must be more personally responsible.
However....
2) IF God lied in the story, what possible analogy or reasoning would that even correlate with? My conception of God is as a Being who cannot lie. Jesus even said that the devil was the "father of lies." The plain reading of this text distorts and challenges the meanings that I learned. Its almost as if the day I learned that God could lie, I myself began to die. If I cant trust the Bible and the God of the Bible, whom can I trust?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by kbertsche, posted 11-13-2010 10:16 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 11:42 AM Phat has replied
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 11-14-2010 11:57 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 159 by nwr, posted 11-14-2010 12:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 153 of 240 (591484)
11-14-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
11-14-2010 11:27 AM


Re: Two Questions
Phat writes:
1) If there is no such thing as original sin, why did Jesus need to come and why all the hoopla about Him coming back? The whole idea of God blessing us seems to have less need..less meaning now.
Perhaps Jesus came to set an example, to teach us "Here is what a Human can be."
And the next step is the Judgment, how close to becoming human did you get?
Phat writes:
2) IF God lied in the story, what possible analogy or reasoning would that even correlate with? My conception of God is as a Being who cannot lie. Jesus even said that the devil was the "father of lies." The plain reading of this text distorts and challenges the meanings that I learned. Its almost as if the day I learned that God could lie, I myself began to die. If I cant trust the Bible and the God of the Bible, whom can I trust?
So you limit what GOD can do?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 11:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 11:50 AM jar has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 154 of 240 (591486)
11-14-2010 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
11-14-2010 11:42 AM


Re: Two Questions
jar writes:
So you limit what GOD can do?
No. I believe in a God of no limits. God can certainly do anything.
A God who is both good and bad is a shocker, however. Its like growing up in an abusive family. You cant trust your parent, so you must fend for yourself. The relationship with that parent is scarred perhaps for life. It was never supposed to be this way with God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 11:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 12:04 PM Phat has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 155 of 240 (591489)
11-14-2010 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
11-14-2010 11:27 AM


Re: Two Questions
Phat writes:
Its almost as if the day I learned that God could lie, I myself began to die.
Isn't that what Genesis 3 is telling us? It's about the death of innocence.
quote:
I think the saddest day of my life was when I realized I could beat my Dad at most things. -- Homer Simpson

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 11:27 AM Phat has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 156 of 240 (591490)
11-14-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
11-14-2010 11:50 AM


Re: Two Questions
Phat writes:
No. I believe in a God of no limits. God can certainly do anything.
A God who is both good and bad is a shocker, however. Its like growing up in an abusive family. You cant trust your parent, so you must fend for yourself. The relationship with that parent is scarred perhaps for life. It was never supposed to be this way with God.
Huh?
Good and bad depend on a human point of view. And are you yet again confusing reality with fantasy?
The Garden of Eden story is a fable, a fantasy. The character called God in the story is not GOD.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 11:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 12:13 PM jar has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 240 (591493)
11-14-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
11-14-2010 12:04 PM


Re: Two Questions
jar writes:
Good and bad depend on a human point of view.(...)The character called God in the story is not GOD
Critics would argue that you cannot know GOD except by reading of His character in the Bible (or god book or your choice) As Christians, we believe in one GOD and in Jesus Christ. That goes for most of the "club christians" that you refer to.
Lets say we were given this gift to know right from wrong, good from bad, that demands personal responsibility, as you say. When we then go to church to commune with our brothers and sisters, can we sing to and truly worship a God whom we don't know?
And since we were taught to believe in a book that is the Word Of God, how would we in any way be able to connect to God if the book itself were believed to be human opinions and interpretations?
Anyone could claim to know God with no credentials.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 12:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 11-14-2010 12:15 PM Phat has replied
 Message 161 by nwr, posted 11-14-2010 12:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 158 of 240 (591494)
11-14-2010 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
11-14-2010 12:13 PM


Back towards the topic Phat, please.
Topic Phat, not rabbit holes.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 12:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 12:35 PM jar has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 159 of 240 (591496)
11-14-2010 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
11-14-2010 11:27 AM


Re: Two Questions
Phat writes:
You have all presented your case for why original sin should be questioned and why the Bible can and should be read in context. The conclusion, if accepted, is itself disturbing.
That should not be disturbing. It should be simple ordinary common sense.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 11:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 160 of 240 (591497)
11-14-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by jar
11-14-2010 12:15 PM


Re: Back towards the topic Phat, please.
Topic Phat, not rabbit holes.
OK. In conclusion, no., There is no Biblical support. Critics may argue that one needs to have the Holy Spirit in order to understand the Bible in context, but I will agree that plain reading of the text is arguably an effective way to support a discussion.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 161 of 240 (591498)
11-14-2010 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
11-14-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Two Questions
jar writes:
Good and bad depend on a human point of view.(...)The character called God in the story is not GOD
Phat writes:
Critics would argue that you cannot know GOD except by reading of His character in the Bible
But can't you tell that the God character in the Adam and Eve story is out of character with what we would normally think of as God? And isn't that part of what makes it obvious that the story is a fable?

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 162 of 240 (591499)
11-14-2010 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by nwr
11-14-2010 12:38 PM


Re: Two Questions
nwr writes:
But can't you tell that the God character in the Adam and Eve story is out of character with what we would normally think of as God? And isn't that part of what makes it obvious that the story is a fable?
And that the story is not about God but about man?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by nwr, posted 11-14-2010 12:38 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 240 (591500)
11-14-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by jar
11-14-2010 12:42 PM


Charges of humanism versus Christianity
nwr writes:
But can't you tell that the God character in the Adam and Eve story is out of character with what we would normally think of as God? And isn't that part of what makes it obvious that the story is a fable?But can't you tell that the God character in the Adam and Eve story is out of character with what we would normally think of as God? And isn't that part of what makes it obvious that the story is a fable?
Yes, actually. My point is that it would be quite disturbing to some if the Bible was proven to be a collection of fables and human interpretations.
jar writes:
And that the story is not about God but about man?
Man writing about man. Man writing about our idea of God relating to man. Critics would say that interpreting the story teaching us what it means to be human is a celebration of humanism and not God nor Christ. Sin is a separation, a loss of awareness of the divine nature potentially given to us. Of course, that's another chapter of another club.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 164 of 240 (591501)
11-14-2010 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
11-14-2010 12:59 PM


Re: Charges of humanism versus Christianity
Phat writes:
My point is that it would be quite disturbing to some if the Bible was proven to be a collection of fables and human interpretations.
I don't think anybody is saying that. We are saying that the Bible is a collection, and that parts (but not all) of that collection are fables. The natural conclusion, is that we have to be discerning readers.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 613 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 165 of 240 (591670)
11-15-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
11-14-2010 11:27 AM


Re: Two Questions
1) If there is no such thing as original sin, why did Jesus need to come and why all the hoopla about Him coming back? The whole idea of God blessing us seems to have less need..less meaning now.
But that's not a huge problem. It just means that we now must be more personally responsible.
Well, that is the whole myth of Christianity. Now, it appears the concept of Original Sin was taken by one sentence from Paul, and expanded upon by Saint Augustus. One sentence in the New testament, usually taken out of context is a mighty thin thread to hang an entire theology on.
As for this whole hoopla about Jesus coming back.. how many generations of Christians have passed that expected Jesus back IN THEIR LIFETIME? After this amount of time, why should we expect him back at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 11-14-2010 11:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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