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Member (Idle past 502 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Simple evidence for ID | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
answers your question whether the universe was designed for life. Obviously the whole universe is not to be packed with life but to ensure that whereever there is life it has quality. Seems resonable?!
I disagree with jar that this is off topic. But most of what you said is, if not off topic, unrelated to anything that I said. The quoted text is a little closer to the topic at hand (and some of what you said earlier). Leaving many objections to one side for the moment, you still have two problems: 1) Most of the inhospitability of the universe is not needed to ensure harmony for life here. It the universe was created for harmonious life, it could have been designed a heck of a lot nicer. Ask the dinosaurs about the universe being harmonious. 2) The fine tuning argument still has issues. Either the universe was fine tuned for our existence, or we are fine tuned for life on earth. We have evidence that populations of living organisms adapt to the environment and we have NO evidence that the environment adapts to living organisms. Until you can show this fine tuning mechanism at work you have no actual evidence for it. Do you have any evidence of fine tuning going on that could not be simply explained in terms of life adapting to the environment?
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Rawel Singh Inactive Member |
Design is not a process but the culmination of the process of plannimg.During this process, the designer identifies the existing situation, carries out an appreciation of where he wants to go, what are the impediments, how they can be overcome,what are the resources required and then arrives at the de. This is what the Creator of the universe has done and produced a design which is flawless. We are dealing here with physical realities which are not abstract. You have said that I have said nothing about the designer. I have been saying all along that it is the Creator, God. This design could not have been carried out by evolution if that is what you have been expecting to hear. Coming back to the subject let us not make the design of the universe look abstract; it is a reality we see and experience every moment and we are all its beneficiaries.
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Design is not a process but the culmination of the process of plannimg.
If that is how you are using the term, then you need to provide evidence of this putative process of planning that culminated in what you are calling design.
During this process, the designer identifies the existing situation, carries out an appreciation of where he wants to go, what are the impediments, how they can be overcome,what are the resources required and then arrives at the de.
No, that won't do. You must actually find evidence for this design process. You can't just make it up as you go along. This thread is supposed to be about evidence.
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Rawel Singh Inactive Member |
Evidence can be provided in two ways. One is to take out the records and go through them to study how the process of design progressed. That obviously is not possible because the design was implemented billions of years ago. Also the design was not carried out but someone on this earth but before the universe and therefore the earth came into being. We can however depend on the cosmic vision granted to the holy masters by God and then disseminated by them. Guru Nanak the fouder of the Sikh religion describes it like this. After God decided to create the universe, He enclosed the space required for it in a shell like that of an egg. There was coplete darkness for millions of years while God carried out the design. After he carried out the design He decided it was time to launch. He had worked out the sequence in which all this was to be done and it was decided to do it in two phases. The first phase was to provide the wherewithal for the living creatures to be created. At the appointed time the egg shell broke the way it happens in the case of the bird eggs. The infrastructure first came into being followed by the living creatres. Only a core was created and millions of streams formed by the process of evolution. This in short was how the universe came into being and expanded. Details of the cosmos has been given saying that millions of planets were created and held in space without any support according to cosmic laws. There is reference also of the Hindu belief that the earth is supported by a bull similar to the Greek belief thatit is the Atlas. It was clarified that there is no physical supportbut the planets are in revolution according to laws of revolution. A sequence of creation has also been given in the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament wherein man was created the last. The Genesis was probably written 3500 years ago and Guru Granth about 400 tyears ago .The difference in details is due to the availability of scientific knowledge at these two times. Thisis the spiritual approach.
The other way is to study the performance of the design. You might have heard of the term 'Reverse engineering'. This is used even in today's scientifically advanced world. This involves studying the make up of the end product and working backwards. However it is possible in the case of the universe to carry out only a coceptual design check and not the physical check because it is not humanly possible to reach all cmponents of the universe. We have a visible end product, the universe. It not only functions in a clockwork fashion but we set our clocks to it. All our requirements have been provided for; we only have to make efforts to get them. Our life has been organized in such a manner that there is time both for work and rest. As human intellect has developed man has harnessed what was availble in nature for his use. I will stop here and ask you that in case you do not agree with what I have said, please give an alternative process, if there is one, that has lead to what is. I request you not to keep raising questions but offer an alternqative if there is one. Over to you. This message has been edited by Rawel Singh, 03-12-2006 05:23 PM This message has been edited by Rawel Singh, 03-12-2006 05:29 PM
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Question (1): Why are you responding to your own post?
Question (2): What is it about something that "runs in a clockwork fashion" that should lead us to conclude that it is designed? "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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Rawel Singh Inactive Member |
1.This message in reply to message no 123 of nwr.
2 I am surprised that design of a system working flawlessly like a clock does not impress you. The clock work fashion working of the cosmic system with annual, seasonal and daily phenomena is what I am referring to. 3. Let us not reject anything because it is connected with divine or religion. Everything should be seen with an open mind.Please do not subscribe to a religion if you do not want to but at least do it after intelligent and objective examination. Quoting someone else does not help.
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Rawel Singh Inactive Member |
Kindly see the reply at 124. It is somehow showing reply to my own post
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Why should I be impressed by this argument? The only conclusion that we can reach from your observation is that you have a weakness for poor analogies. -
quote: I am not rejecting anything because it is connected with the divine or religion. I am rejecting something for which there is no good reason to accept. "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
This message in reply to message no 123 of nwr.
I was wondering if you intended that as a reply to me. Clearly you clicked the wrong "Reply" button.
I am surprised that design of a system working flawlessly like a clock does not impress you.
How do we know that it works flawlessly like a clock. Maybe it works erratically, in fits and starts. But because we are part of the same system, we work with the same fits and starts, and so we don't notice them.
Let us not reject anything because it is connected with divine or religion.
I'm not doing that. I'm just rejecting your argument from incredulity.
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Rawel Singh Inactive Member |
I wish you Good Luck. God bless you!
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Dare-to-question Inactive Member |
Anyone following the debate between creationists and evolutionists might care to visit Index of / “The Weeping Redwood Tree” is an allegory that might contribute to a harmonious and deeper understanding between science and religions.
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
You've posted exactly the same message, one with absolutely no information content, in several threads.
If you wish to discuss things fine. But cut & paste or spamming links is not acceptable here. One more such incident and your permissions to post will be suspended. Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
That was my conclusion too.
Doing a google, there is a Kevin Scott in East Sussex and the title of the webpage is "dare to question" ... This message has been edited by RAZD, 04*09*2006 11:56 AM
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Dare-to-question Inactive Member |
Sorry. I'm new on the block. Will carefully read guidelines in future.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
No probs, as long as you participate in the discussions rather than push an agenda eh?
So is that your website? If so you might want to put that message in your signature. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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