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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1075
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 197 of 253 (668105)
07-17-2012 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 11:43 PM


King Lists
Didn't see this until now. The King list you provide for the Irish kings is the typical list taken from Foras Feasa ar Eirinn (Foundation for a knowledge of Ireland), Annla na gCeithre Mistr (Annals of the four masters) and the other Annals.

However the list is almost entirely fictional, most of it was written and rewritten in an attempt to match Celtic beliefs and Christian beliefs and was then further distorted at various points in history to match the political aims of various families. The list and the surrounding origin myths (written in the form of prose poetry) settled into a canonical form in the late 11th century in a work known as Leabhar Gabhla na hireann (Book of Invasions of (the) Ireland).

The main point is that the book projects an 10/11th century phenomena (the high king) and attempts to project back into earlier history when in truth the title simply didn't exist.


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broken180
Junior Member (Idle past 1564 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 07-31-2012


Message 198 of 253 (669694)
08-01-2012 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Phat
04-09-2012 9:10 AM


Re: bottom line
Hello Jar, yes I would like to take you up on your offer. I am no expert but I have been told that Daniel 9:25 is about prophesy of Jesus and gives a time. Interestingly for me is it was mentioned out of context so I would like to know what you make of it in your understanding.

Indeed the person who mentioned this to me said that the Jewish scholars had placed a curse on this verse to deter people from doing the math.

I have read the entire post and have found it interesting. Easier to read and take in than the old testament itself.

Any insight on why my eyes glaze over and my mind switches off when reading the old testament?


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 199 of 253 (669697)
08-01-2012 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by broken180
08-01-2012 3:22 PM


Re: bottom line
double post

Edited by jar, : fumble fingers


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 200 of 253 (669699)
08-01-2012 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by broken180
08-01-2012 3:22 PM


Re: bottom line
Yeah, I've heard nonsense like what the person told you myself and my reaction is that the person most likely has never read the Bible.

Daniel 9:25 is covered in Message 13. As usual, what you were told is simply an example of "quote mining"; taking pieces parts out of context and of just plain misrepresentation. In particular, the part about "Jewish scholars had placed a curse on this verse to deter people from doing the math" is just plain hilarious.

One thing common throughout Jewish culture of the era was that they loved numerology and doing the math. In addition there was no need of any curse; if they were concerned about "people from doing the math" all they had to do was leave that part out.

AbE;

The eyeball glaze is most likely the result of not being taught initially what the Old Testament was and having folk tell you that it is one story with one purpose. It's not and never was meant to be one book or have a common purpose.

And welcome to EvC.

Edited by jar, : add welcome


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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PaulK
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Posts: 12971
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 201 of 253 (669702)
08-01-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by broken180
08-01-2012 3:22 PM


Re: bottom line
I'll just say add that I've seen these calculations and they definitely involve some fiddling. And anyone who says that they point to the exact day Jesus died is deceived or lying (nobody KNOWS which year Jesus did in, so there's no way to tell, even if the calculations did work out without fiddling).

Even worse is the fact that Daniel is quite definitely about events in the middle of the 2nd Century BC. (Daniel 8, for instance, rules out any possibility that it refers to the time of Jesus).

Oh, and I can definitely understand why parts of the Old Testament make your eyes glaze over. Not all of it is that bad, though.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 202 of 253 (669846)
08-03-2012 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 1:24 PM


oh, are we doing this thread again?
ScottyDouglas writes:

Re: Isaiah 7
KJV-R (Webster) Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

This is what was fulfilled.

Mat 1:18-25

so my last contribution to this thread, almost two years ago, was this pair of posts: Message 101 and Message 102. the first post links to Message 385 in another thread, that rather thoroughly explains the translation and context of the verse. i suggest you read it, carefully, but the tl;dr version is that child is a clock for the prophecy, not the prophecy itself. the prophecy is that, roughly 13 years after israel and aram declared war on judah, israel would be destroyed by assyria. the war began in 732 BCE, and ended in 720 BCE when assyria destroyed israel. the child is inexorably linked to these two events, and thus cannot be jesus.

in fact, there is every reason to think that the child is king hezekiah, as the link in my second post supports.

Edited by arachnophilia, : link added for the lazy


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 203 of 253 (669849)
08-03-2012 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by broken180
08-01-2012 3:22 PM


eye-glaze
broken180 writes:

Any insight on why my eyes glaze over and my mind switches off when reading the old testament?

what jar says,

jar writes:

The eyeball glaze is most likely the result of not being taught initially what the Old Testament was and having folk tell you that it is one story with one purpose. It's not and never was meant to be one book or have a common purpose.

is probably a large part of the problem. people are taught a particular conception of the bible -- that it's mystical, the word of god, hard to understand and interpret, what it really says and means, etc -- and then upon actually reading it, cognitive dissonance sets in. it is extremely hard to ignore all that kind of stuff, as western culture is so steeped in judeo-christian dogma even atheists are familiar with things the bible supposedly says.

another part, i think, is that translations are frequently obtuse. sometimes, perhaps, intentionally so. the first vulgar translations were considered heretical, because it granted the people power to read (and therefore interpret) the text in their native languages. since then, many churches still prefer antiquated, overly formal rigid translations (eg: KJV) that obscure the content because the audience is unfamiliar with the dialect. compare, for instance, these two translations:

quote:
Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

quote:
You must know and understand: From the issuance of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the [time of the] anointed leader is seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt, square and moat, but in a time of distress.

this isn't even a particularly good example.

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 204 of 253 (669897)
08-05-2012 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by ramoss
05-21-2012 4:06 PM


the identity of the young woman
ramoss writes:

Second of all, if you read the passages in surround this line, you can see that isaiah identifies the young woman as 'the prophetess' (see Isaiah 8:3)

i don't agree that the child is necessarily isaiah's son. for one, the clock has shortened. note that isaha 7 says,

quote:
כִּי בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, מָאֹס בָּרָע--וּבָחֹר בַּטּוֹב

which is a little more than just saying "no", but knowledge of right and wrong. that would signify, in my opinion, a child just reaching the age of adulthood -- 12 or 13. yet isaiah 8 says,

quote:
כִּי, בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, קְרֹא, אָבִי וְאִמִּי

being able cry "abi! ami!" is much, much younger. yet these verse are phrased almost exactly the same. if we look at the time between israel and aram waging war against judah (the reason isaiah spoke to ahaz) in 732 BCE, and the destruction israel at the hands of assyria in 720 BCE, you get 12-13 years, the time frame from isaiah 7. yet isaiah 8 is pointing to the same event, with a shorter timeframe.

proto-isaiah seems to have a chiastic structure from chapters 7-11. like so:

  • 7: isaiah takes his son, "a remnant will return" with him to meet ahaz
  • 7: "god is with us" named as a child
    • 8: "hasten for spoil, hurry for plunder" named as a child; "god is with us" meant as judgement (8:8.10)
      • 9: "wonderful councilor, mighty judge, everlasting father, prince of peace", davidic/messianic connotations; the child will lead the government
    • 10: assyria invades israel (the judgement), takes "spoil" and "plunder" (10:6)
  • 11: the "shoot of jesse", again clearly davidic/messianic
  • 11: a "remnant" will be recovered by god (11:11)

basically, because of the structure, and the different dates for the prophecies, i think that 7, 9, and 11 are the same child, where 8 and 10 are talking about a different child. 9 and 11 both clearly have davidic language; that child is the next king. and i think based on the context, the child in 7 is as well.

i would say that the young woman is abijah, ahaz's wife, and the child is hezekiah. my understanding is that this is a fairly traditional jewish view as well. the doctoral thesis i linked up above makes a good case for this.

He confirms that, by saying in Isaiah 8:18 that he and his sons are the signs from God.

to be sure, isaiah has two children who are mentioned in chapters 7 (mirrored in 11) and 8 (mirrored in 10). i think immanuel is a third child, that isn't his. maybe. it's sort of mysterious that, in the verse directly preceding the one where he has sex with a prophetess, he mentions zechariah, which is probably abijah's father.


אָרַח

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1318 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 205 of 253 (671361)
08-24-2012 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by jar
05-18-2012 5:15 PM


jar:

If you think that there is an Old Testament prophecy that is fulfilled by Jesus that we have not already dealt with, please specify the Chapter and Verse and we will take a look at it.

///////

I suggest that the christians and the jewsih people re-think the idea that Christ was the messiah ben David or else worse.

The evidence seems to support that Jesus was a mere man, the suffering messiah ben Joseph and the he was baptized and indwelled by the spirit of Elijah, who departed from him in the Transfiguration when he morphed back into a mortal.

Consider these verses:

They both did the same miracles and had the same experience, etc. And miracles was traditional supposed to identify Elijah when would come back.

John said he was the Elijah, john wa mortal, i.e.; beheaded.
He did no miracles.
He never prophesied.
He could NEVER be accepted as The Great Elijah by the Jews, that is for sure.

Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.

Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.

Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.

Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.

Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.

Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.

Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.

Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.

Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.

Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.

Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.

Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities

Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead

Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.

Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.

Both had miraculous births.

Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd

Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.

Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 05-18-2012 5:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 206 of 253 (671364)
08-24-2012 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 2:03 PM


Topic
Nothing in your post has anything to do with the topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1318 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 207 of 253 (671377)
08-24-2012 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
08-24-2012 2:17 PM


Re: Topic
?

The OP asks whether any of the prophecies we are to attribute to the messiah ben David were fulfilled by Jesus.

"Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?"

My post infers that no, they were not because Jesus was the messiah ben Joseph and in that capacity all of what was traditionally assumed that the messiah ben Josph would accomplish does seem to have been done:

The Messiah ben Joseph will furthermore win the heathen by the spirit of wisdom and righteousness which rests upon him (Sibyllines, iii. 780; Test. Patr., Levi, 18; Judah, 24; Targ. Yer. to Gen. xlix. 12 and Isa. xli. 1).

He will teach the nations the Noachian laws of humanity and make all men disciples of the Lord (Midr. Teh. xxi.).

The wonders of the time of Moses will be repeated on a larger scale in the time of the Messiah (Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 8, after Micah vii. 15; comp. Hosea ii. 17; Targ.; Tan., Bo, ed. Buber, 6).

What Moses, the first redeemer, did is typical of what the Messiah as the last redeemer will do (Eccl. R. i. 9).

The redemption will be in the same month of Nisan, (at the Passover seders), and in the same night (Mek., Bo, 14); the same pillar of cloud will lead Israel (Philo, "De Execrationibus," 8; Targ. Yer. to Isa. xxxv. 10):

the same plagues will be sent upon Israel's foes (Tan., Wa'era, ed. Buber, 15; Bo, 6, 19; Midr. Wayosha'; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 45);

the redeemer will ride on an ass (Zech. ix. 9; comp. Ex. iv. 20);

manna, (transubstantiation?) will again be sent down from heaven (Ps. lxxii. 16; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 24; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxix. 8);

and water rise from beneath by miraculous power (walk on water)(Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 18; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 15 et seq.; Eccl. R. i. 9).

Like Moses, the Messiah will disappear for... 40 days (and nights) after his appearance (Pesiḥ. R. 15; Pesiḥ. v. 49b, after Hosea v. 15).

The same number of people will be redeemed (Sanh. 111a)
and the Song of Moses be replaced by another song[/b] (New Testament) (Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 1\[b\]; Rev. xv. 3).

But,\[b\] like Moses, the Messiah will die /\[b\](II Esd. l.c.); the opinion that the Messiah will not taste death (Midr. Teh. lxxii. 17) seems to be of later origin, and will be discussed in connection with the account of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph or Ephraim (see below).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5849-eschatology


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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 208 of 253 (671378)
08-24-2012 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 5:13 PM


Re: Topic
Fine, but it still has nothing to do with the topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 209 of 253 (671380)
08-24-2012 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
08-24-2012 5:25 PM


Re: Topic
Fine, but it still has nothing to do with the topic.

Sheesh. Yes it does. There is, after all, a reason why we know that Jesus does not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1318 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 210 of 253 (671383)
08-24-2012 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Dr Adequate
08-24-2012 5:29 PM


Re: Topic
jar:

Fine, but it still has nothing to do with the topic.

Dr A
Sheesh. Yes it does. There is, after all, a reason why we know that Jesus does not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

//////

I don't get the point.

I am agreeing with the argument that Jesus did not do what was expected of the messiah ben David, and i show that instead, Jesus must have been the suffering messiah bwcause he did do what the traditional expectations were.

What also supports Christ as the Elijah, not messiah ben David was that he used the Elijah Cup, right after the third cup at the seder.
The ONLY ritual Jesus passed down was for us to remember that he used this cup, and had everyone drink from it.

That is even more significant in that the Pharisee and rabbi had stopped debate concerning whether to drink from Elijah's cup when he did not show up for centuries.
They has long set their debate aside and agreed to await Elijah who would advise them onthe matter.

That IS just what happened:

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 211 of 253 (671385)
08-24-2012 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Dr Adequate
08-24-2012 5:29 PM


Re: Topic
The issue is not whether or not Jesus is the Messiah or anything outside the specific Old Testament prophecies listed.

The question revolves around specific prophecies listed by ICDESIGN and where they were supposedly fulfilled in the New Testament according to ICDESIGN.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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