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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List')
Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 796 of 897 (757919)
05-16-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 795 by NoNukes
05-16-2015 4:30 AM


NoNukes writes:

But your current rule...

This isn't some new rule of convenience. Longtimers will likely recall that I have many times over the years said things like, "EvC Forum exists to examine creation science's claim that it is every bit as much science as all the other scientific fields." I've also said things like, "The Bible can be a source of ideas and inspiration but is not, in and of itself, evidence." Being scientific in the science forums is just a part of staying on-topic.

To this end it would be perfectly fine for a creationist to say, "I know there was a Flood because the Bible says so, but now I will present the scientific evidence that the Flood really happened." But it would catch the attention of moderators for a creationist to say, "I know there was a Flood because the Bible says so, and any evidence you have that says otherwise is wrong."

When Faith begins letting references to Bible topics creep into her posts then she's usually headed in the direction of that latter creationist position. We've seen a number of recent examples, so I'm trying to address the possibility early. In the science forums members are requested to support positions with facts rather than Bible-based claims.

Those who wish to take a Bible-based approach to evidence are encouraged to use the Theological Creationism and ID forum.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2015 4:30 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2015 11:24 PM Admin has responded

    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3794
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 797 of 897 (757946)
05-16-2015 7:28 PM


Admin's heavy moderation of certain topics
I thinking specifically of Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it, but there is at least one other.

At the cited topic, there are currently 1739 messages, of which 174 are from Admin. He is third on the post number list.

While Admin's effort is impressive, my impression is that he is more doing debate under the Admin ID, than just moderating. Looking at the bulk of the Admin messages content, would they have seemed improper had they come from the Percy ID, or another non-admin member?

On the flip side, in the more distant past, I've also sometimes noticed admins moderating via their non-admin ID's.

Comments?

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that.

Replies to this message:
 Message 798 by Omnivorous, posted 05-16-2015 10:25 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded
 Message 802 by Admin, posted 05-17-2015 8:51 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded
 Message 804 by Faith, posted 05-19-2015 6:00 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 407 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(3)
Message 798 of 897 (757951)
05-16-2015 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 797 by Adminnemooseus
05-16-2015 7:28 PM


Re: Admin's heavy moderation of certain topics
Adminnemooseus writes:

At the cited topic, there are currently 1739 messages, of which 174 are from Admin. He is third on the post number list.

And it's been a long time since a mod here tried to enforce the rigors of scientific debate on a creationist debater in our science threads.

Past damned time.

Edited by Omnivorous, : +t


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-16-2015 7:28 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2015 11:02 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5859
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 799 of 897 (757952)
05-16-2015 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 798 by Omnivorous
05-16-2015 10:25 PM


Re: Admin's heavy moderation of certain topics
Adminnemooseus writes:

At the cited topic, there are currently 1739 messages, of which 174 are from Admin. He is third on the post number list.

And it's been a long time since a mod here tried to enforce the rigors of scientific debate on a creationist debater in our science threads.

Past damned time.


True.

But without creationists to try to educate, as hopeless as that often is, we'd have about 90% fewer posts in those threads and the remaining posts would be largely in agreement. And we'd be missing out on a lot of fun reading the absolutely silly things creationists come up with in the guise of science when what they're doing (as everyone knows) is pure religious apologetics.

The pretzels they have to twist their arguments into to try to appear scientific, while being the exact opposite, are quite amusing.

And it all helps us to refine our arguments, which isn't a bad thing.

So, I'd favor being a little lax in the science threads.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by Omnivorous, posted 05-16-2015 10:25 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by Omnivorous, posted 05-17-2015 6:09 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9648
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 800 of 897 (757954)
05-16-2015 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 796 by Admin
05-16-2015 9:05 AM


I've also said things like, "The Bible can be a source of ideas and inspiration but is not, in and of itself, evidence." Being scientific in the science forums is just a part of staying on-topic.

Right, admin. And I certainly agree that Faith was over the line in the forum in which you gave your warning.

However telling people not to bring up Bible topics is hardly the same thing as your long standing rule against using the Bible to support a scientific argument. A perfectly acceptable post in say, the Accuracy and Inerrancy topic would be one that described a Biblical topic and explain why it did or did not happen as described. A rebuttal that claimed that the Bible did not actually say that would also seem to be allowable. Your statement to " avoid references to Biblical topics ... in any thread' would seem to rule out the entire discussion. It seems quite likely that you don't actually mean you you said.

I don't expect you to acknowledge that you crossed the line with your warning. It's pretty clear that we can continue to discuss things like how many allele's can be present in a species if the Bible is correct in an appropriate thread in the scientific forum, regardless of what you recently posted.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

The only thing I suggest is that genes died as a result of all those people and animals dying in the Flood, whose traits were lost to the species and therefore the alleles for those traits, so the genes just died and remain in the genome as corpses. Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by Admin, posted 05-16-2015 9:05 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by Admin, posted 05-17-2015 9:02 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 407 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 801 of 897 (757961)
05-17-2015 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 799 by Coyote
05-16-2015 11:02 PM


Re: Admin's heavy moderation of certain topics
Coyote writes:

So, I'd favor being a little lax in the science threads.

Agreed.

But "a little" is a lot less than the laxity that generally prevails for creationists here, and Faith seems able to take the heat.

I like Faith's feistiness and command of the language. She is capable of writing with grace and wit--she is also capable of following the clear standards of scientific debate. If she is not held to that standard, then we are merely improving her vocabulary and ability to obfuscate.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2015 11:02 PM Coyote has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 802 of 897 (757963)
05-17-2015 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 797 by Adminnemooseus
05-16-2015 7:28 PM


Re: Admin's heavy moderation of certain topics
Adminnemooseus writes:

I thinking specifically of Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it, but there is at least one other.

At the cited topic, there are currently 1739 messages, of which 174 are from Admin. He is third on the post number list.

While Admin's effort is impressive, my impression is that he is more doing debate under the Admin ID, than just moderating. Looking at the bulk of the Admin messages content, would they have seemed improper had they come from the Percy ID, or another non-admin member?

It surprised me, too, that in the end I posted so many messages. My goal was to bring side issues that were threatening to push the main topic aside to a quick conclusion. Horizontality is one example, dropstones are another. I believed that a couple or few exchanges between me and Faith would bring these side issues to a close so that discussion of the main topic could continue. The physical impossibility of Faith's misconception of how the real world works seemed fairly obvious and easy to resolve.

But that turned out not to be the case. Faith would try ignoring me, so I would post the information again. And again. When she did deign to respond and argue for her positions I worked hard to find new and more effective arguments. When that didn't work I asked Faith to postpone arguing for positions for which she didn't yet have evidence, but this would work for only a short while, and then the process would start again.

At what point should I have given up? I don't know, but it would seem a bad precedent to allow members to nullify moderation simply by drawing out an exchange and making moderators post too much. Right now, as far as moderation goes, I'm looking at the Great Unconformity thread not as a failure but not as a success either. I did learn some things. I do think that moderator intervention to try to bring a side issue to a quick conclusion is a good idea, but that if that doesn't work after a short while that the moderator should rule on the side issue, holding that for that thread the side issue should be considered resolved in the direction he chooses, and that those who would like to continue discussing the side issue should propose a new thread or find an appropriate existing thread.

On the flip side, in the more distant past, I've also sometimes noticed admins moderating via their non-admin ID's.

The Moderator Guidelines discourage moderators from moderating in the same thread where they're participating:

  1. Be very careful when moderating in any thread where you are also a participant. Using your moderator powers to give you an advantage in discussion is a difficult temptation to resist, but resist it you must.

Looking at this now it feels like it should be phrased more strongly. Sometimes when I'm in a heated discussion as Percy a member will say something like, "I guess you'll ban me now," and I always respond that as a participant in the thread I cannot moderate.

Participating in threads as a normal member when people know you're also a moderator is a mixed bag. It feels like some members treat you normally, others treat you with deference, others seem to have a bit of paranoia, and yet others like to test the boundaries.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-16-2015 7:28 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 803 of 897 (757964)
05-17-2015 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by NoNukes
05-16-2015 11:24 PM


NoNukes writes:

However telling people not to bring up Bible topics is hardly the same thing as your long standing rule against using the Bible to support a scientific argument.
...
I don't expect you to acknowledge that you crossed the line with your warning. It's pretty clear that we can continue to discuss things like how many allele's can be present in a species if the Bible is correct in an appropriate thread in the scientific forum, regardless of what you recently posted.

Yes, of course discussion like that is fine. I wasn't adding a new rule to the Forum Guidelines. The request to avoid Bible topics was for that thread only because for that topic I know where Faith is going when she begins mentioning the Flood and so forth. I was laying the groundwork for requesting that Faith avoid saying things like, (paraphrasing of course) "We know the Flood created a genetic bottleneck..." so that she could instead concentrate on her *evidence* for a genetic bottleneck.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2015 11:24 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25251
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 804 of 897 (758115)
05-19-2015 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 797 by Adminnemooseus
05-16-2015 7:28 PM


Re: Admin's heavy moderation of certain topics
In general I've appreciated Percy's moderation, he's kept some subtopics in line and had a clarifying influence overall. I do agree that at times he goes over the line into participating in the debate. Not enough to make an issue of though.

What's bothering me today that brought me to this thread is that now he seems to be micromanaging me to extreme excess. Can't use this phrase, can't say that.

Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

Otherwise "I can heartily recommend the Gestapo to anyone."
--(attributed to Sigmund Freud)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3628
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 805 of 897 (761402)
07-01-2015 8:21 AM


The GWW thread should never have been promoted. It's "topic" is impossibly broad. There's dozens of topics in there, each of which could sustain a thread for weeks.
Replies to this message:
 Message 806 by Phat, posted 07-01-2015 11:19 AM JonF has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9420
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 806 of 897 (761420)
07-01-2015 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 805 by JonF
07-01-2015 8:21 AM


WRONG!
Hey its America. Land of free choice. Coke or Pepsi. Logic or Belief.

Satan or Psychosis.

I promoted her. Granted she isn't disciplined. Granted she may be promoting her own religious agenda.

Still....she is a creationist. We don't simply have one type of thinking here.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by JonF, posted 07-01-2015 8:21 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by JonF, posted 07-01-2015 1:24 PM Phat has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3628
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 807 of 897 (761455)
07-01-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 806 by Phat
07-01-2015 11:19 AM


Re: WRONG!
Not promoting groupthink... but she's just mindlessly regurgitating crap (almost all of it irrelevant) and not participating in the discussion at all. At least Faith makes some attempt.

As long as the thread covers dozens of topics it's going to be a disaster. Have her start a thread on one aspect; GPS, Lagrange points, Foucault pendulum, ... the list is endless.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by Phat, posted 07-01-2015 11:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9420
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 808 of 897 (761484)
07-01-2015 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by JonF
07-01-2015 1:24 PM


Goodbye Suzanne
She has told us she is leaving. I really had hopes that she would stay and get to know us...our unique personality quirks, our logic, our reasoning, and our kind souls. I tend to give newer members a bit more leeway in topic proposals and would have tolerated one topic all over the place as long as their was no overt attempt to spam or advertise. Even that will be mildly tolerated for an older EvC member---but nobody does it so we don't have an issue with any of our 141 active members or 8342 total.

All I can say to those of you who insist upon logic, reason, and reality is that I will defend any new member no matter how illogical they are even in the science forums as long as they understand that they will be challenged by all of you and not to take it personally. Its a rare breed who can handle such a gauntlet, however.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by JonF, posted 07-01-2015 1:24 PM JonF has not yet responded

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Jon
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 809 of 897 (761492)
07-01-2015 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by Phat
07-01-2015 6:22 PM


Re: Goodbye Suzanne
All I can say to those of you who insist upon logic, reason, and reality is that I will defend any new member no matter how illogical they are even in the science forums as long as they understand that they will be challenged by all of you and not to take it personally.

Even when they break forum rules, ignore moderator requests, and show no signs whatsoever of wanting an actual discussion?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by Phat, posted 07-01-2015 6:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5859
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 810 of 897 (761495)
07-01-2015 10:38 PM


Cranks
We don't need pure cranks here.

We have a lot of good debates with our creationists (e.g., Faith), but pure cranks should be encouraged to go elsewhere.


  
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