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Author Topic:   Life on other Planets?
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 91 of 160 (594663)
12-04-2010 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:26 PM


Huh????? Life on other Planets?
Come on guy. What does any of that have to do with the topic? In case you forgot, we are talking about "Life on other Planets?".

Your belief in some designer or deity is irrelevant, unimportant.

Your definition of chaos is irrelevant, unimportant.

Life on other Planets?

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:26 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:52 PM jar has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 92 of 160 (594664)
12-04-2010 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
12-04-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Huh?????
We can reasonably conclude - not speculate - that water has the same freeze/thaw/evaporate/condense behaviour on other planets as it does on earth. We can similarly conclude that other chemicals, the constituents of life, have the same behaviour on other planets as they do on earth. Hence, it is inevitable that abiogenesis will happen, given the appropriate conditions.

As we can NOT conclude that BY VIRTUE OF water having the same properties in space as on our planet, and that chemicals having the same behavior on other planets as on earth (note: nor can we also conclude that all chemicals have the same behavior on other planets as they do on Earth) abiogenesis will inevitably happen, HENCE it is thoroughly inappropriate to say that "hence abiogenesis will inevitably happen."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-04-2010 10:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 12-04-2010 1:49 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 12-04-2010 3:16 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 103 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-04-2010 3:28 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 93 of 160 (594666)
12-04-2010 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:36 PM


Huh?????
I'm sorry but why can we not conclude that "all chemicals have the same behavior on other planets as they do on Earth" since ALL of the evidence shows that they do?

And in addition, who is saying that abiogenesis will inevitably happen?

So far it looks like all you have are attempts to change the subject and misrepresenting what folk say as usual.

You do understand that there are means of remote testing for things like chemistry, nuclear reactions, physical properties, even things like amino acids and that so far every such test has shown that chemistry and physics are about the same everywhere?

If things behave the same what reason is there to think things will not behave the same?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:36 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 94 of 160 (594667)
12-04-2010 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
12-04-2010 1:33 PM


Re: Huh????? Life on other Planets?
Good question, I am glad you asked.

It is simply a matter of editorial comment and response that it is perhaps informationally of interest that evolutionists overwhelmingly (overwhelmingly being used in the sense of virtually without exception) believe in the existence of something for which they have zero empirical evidence, while at the same time selectively proclaiming opposition to belief in things for which one does not have empirical evidence.

Aliens in space, vibrating strings of infinite size, worm holes, alternative dimensions of existence------Yes

An intelligent force behind observable ordered phenomenon-----No.

Just interesting, that's all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 12-04-2010 1:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 12-04-2010 2:01 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 96 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-04-2010 2:08 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 97 by frako, posted 12-04-2010 2:12 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 12-04-2010 2:19 PM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 100 by bluescat48, posted 12-04-2010 3:15 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 105 by Blue Jay, posted 12-04-2010 3:29 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 95 of 160 (594668)
12-04-2010 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:52 PM


More missrepresentations?
Bolder-dash writes:

Aliens in space, vibrating strings of infinite size, worm holes, alternative dimensions of existence------Yes

Again, so far no one but you has mentioned any of those things and so it is just another attempt by you to change teh subject.

Life on other Planets?

That is the topic in case you forgot.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:52 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 96 of 160 (594670)
12-04-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:52 PM


Re: Huh????? Life on other Planets?
Good question, I am glad you asked.

It is simply a matter of editorial comment and response that it is perhaps informationally of interest that evolutionists overwhelmingly (overwhelmingly being used in the sense of virtually without exception) believe in the existence of something for which they have zero empirical evidence, while at the same time selectively proclaiming opposition to belief in things for which one does not have empirical evidence.

Aliens in space, vibrating strings of infinite size, worm holes, alternative dimensions of existence------Yes

An intelligent force behind observable ordered phenomenon-----No.

Just interesting, that's all.

While your delusions are somewhat interesting to those of us who are interested in the psychology of being wrong, they aren't really on topic, are they?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:52 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 97 of 160 (594671)
12-04-2010 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:52 PM


Re: Huh????? Life on other Planets?
Aliens in space

Well we have seen inteligent life form on Erth and so fare there is no evidence that Inteligente life Could not have formed on some other planet.

, vibrating strings of infinite size,

Well the the math suports it though i do not understand the theory too well

worm holes,

Just look at an apple ynd you will find one Worm holes are still verry hypothetical as fare as i know.

alternative dimensions of existence

I do not understand that one either thoug they say they have something to go on, Tough you would also haveto belive in this if you want to have your heven and hell.

An intelligent force behind observable ordered phenomenon

Well because you provide such silly arguments that cannot be supported. I see order so there must be a desighner Wtf. I do not see order so there is no desighner LOL. You would haveto acount to why one would NEED a desighner for ORDER why could it not just become order like it usualy does. Pour a drop of ink in to the glass at first it is verry disorderly, wait a while and all the water turns blue the colored molecules arange themselves in an orderly fasion and no one told them to.

Just interesting, that's all.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:52 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 98 of 160 (594673)
12-04-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:52 PM


Bolder is a Liar
It is simply a matter of editorial comment and response that it is perhaps informationally of interest that evolutionists overwhelmingly (overwhelmingly being used in the sense of virtually without exception) believe in the existence of something for which they have zero empirical evidence

Maybe they do and maybe they don't. Certainly the responses in this thread are not statements of unquestioning, blind faith; but rather highly qualified and universally marked by a reticence to take a position supported by no evidence.

I mean, we're not dumb, Bolder. Everybody knew what you were going to do as soon as you opened the thread. Here's a representative sample of the replies:

How many people here believe there is life on other planets?

quote:
Probably

quote:
I don't know.

quote:
Life on other planets is probable, but there is little evidence either way. I'll wait until there is.

quote:
I would need more data.

quote:
No.

quote:
Whether or not there is life elsewhere in the universe is something that may never be known for sure

quote:
... witouth evidence [of] actual life found there i cant give a clear yes.

quote:
No evidence to make that claim

quote:
I don't have physical verifiable reproducible evidence to support such a statement.

Just to be clear, these are the replies from which you're concluding that evolutionists "overwhelmingly, as in virtually without exception" have absolute blind faith in the existence of extraterrestrial life.

Fess up, Bolder. You were going to accuse us of having blind faith anyway, no matter what we wrote. Weren't you? As for "blind faith" - if the statements I quoted had been made in the context of belief in God, I think you would have accused each and every utterer as being an atheist or at least an agnostic. Nobody would construe "I would need more data", for instance, as a profession of unquestioning faith in God.

The only thing that makes you look stupider than trying to set up a really obvious trap is when your quarry spots the trap and you try to spring it anyway. You didn't even read our replies, did you? You just assumed that we were all Star Trek nerds who would "overwhelmingly, virtually without any exception" have utter confidence in life on other planets.

Man, you truly are a moron.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:52 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-05-2010 5:00 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1210 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 99 of 160 (594677)
12-04-2010 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:26 PM


Re: Huh?????
Thanks for the link.
BD writes:

cha·os

–noun


4.
(initial capital letter) the personification of this in any of several ancient Greek myths.
5.
Obsolete. a chasm or abyss.

The behavior of systems that follow deterministic laws but appear random and unpredictable. Chaotic systems very are sensitive to initial conditions; small changes in those conditions can lead to quite different outcomes. One example of chaotic behavior is the flow of air in conditions of turbulence.

A new branch of science that deals with systems whose evolution depends very sensitively upon the initial conditions. Turbulent flows of fluids (such as white water in a river) and the prediction of the weather are two areas where chaos theory has been applied with some success.

A property of some non-linear dynamic systems which exhibit sensitive dependence on initial conditions. This means that there are initial states which evolve within some finite time to states whose separation in one or more dimensions of state space depends, in an average sense, exponentially on their initial separation.

You intentionally didn't list the other meanings as that would have undermined your point.
If you have to lie to make a point, then that point is invalid.

BD writes:

When it me choosing the words I get to decide what their meanings are. In most cases I will use the actual meaning of the word!


Which makes it easy for everyone as words only have one meaning.
Oh no, they don't - but at least we can read your mind to find out which meaning you are using.
Oh no, we can't - but at least we can use the context to identify which meaning you are using.
Oh no, we can't - as you use which ever meaning you feel like, regardless of the context.

BD writes:

So which does the world appear more like to you-order or chaos?


I addressed all of the points you raised in your original message, but you think you can ignore my replies and start asking more facile questions.
If you do not have the decency to address my responses then you are again being intentionally dishonest when debating.

If only Christianity had some requirement for honesty or maybe some kind of moral guide.
But it would seem not, judging by your behaviour.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:26 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1687 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 100 of 160 (594686)
12-04-2010 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:52 PM


Re: Huh????? Life on other Planets?
Aliens in space, vibrating strings of infinite size, worm holes, alternative dimensions of existence------Yes

You are assuming a fact not in evidence. When the science side says that there is a possibility, probability or any other similar statement, that doesn't mean blind acceptance. It is simply that we don't totally reject the concept.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:52 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13450
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 101 of 160 (594687)
12-04-2010 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:36 PM


Bolder=dash writes:

(note: nor can we also conclude that all chemicals have the same behavior on other planets as they do on Earth)


To clarify, I mean that chemicals will have the same behaviour in the same conditions whether those conditions exist on earth or on other planets.

It seems reasonable to assume that earth-like conditions exist on other planets. Therefore, since we know that life began by abiogenesis on earth (whether it was helped along by some intelligent entity or not), it seems reasonable to conclude that the same process occured on other planets too (whether it was helped along by some intelligent entity or not).


"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:36 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 102 of 160 (594688)
12-04-2010 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Theodoric
12-03-2010 10:19 PM


You are correct in that psychology gets the mark into the casino, but the odds is what makes them the money.

It's also psychology that keeps people in the casino. Gambling is a variable ratio reinforcement schedule with immediate feedback.

This schedule is perfect to create a high steady response rate and is responsible for the addictivity (is that a word? it is, now) of gambling in general.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Theodoric, posted 12-03-2010 10:19 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 103 of 160 (594689)
12-04-2010 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:36 PM


Re: Huh?????
note: nor can we also conclude that all chemicals have the same behavior on other planets as they do on Earth

Yeah, maybe on Mars selenium is a halide.

Ah ... creationism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:36 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 104 of 160 (594691)
12-04-2010 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
12-03-2010 10:49 PM


Re: Topic?
I'm sorry but what does an of that nonsense have to do with the topic which in case you forgot is "Life on other Planets?"

I figured he was playing some kind of 'gotcha!' game right from the start.

Do I win £5?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 12-03-2010 10:49 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 105 of 160 (594692)
12-04-2010 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:52 PM


Re: Huh????? Life on other Planets?
Hi, Dash.

Bolder-dash writes:

evolutionists overwhelmingly ... believe in the existence of something for which they have zero empirical evidence, while at the same time selectively proclaiming opposition to belief in things for which one does not have empirical evidence.

Are you familiar with the concept of establishing precedent?

If little Johnny doesn't get in trouble for taking a cookie, then little Timmy is going to think it's okay for him to take a cookie too.

If a court case uses a particular argument, and the argument is allowed by the court, future cases are also going to allow the same argument to be used in other cases.

As far as life is concerned, an observation that life exists here establishes the precedent that life at least can exist. When we add the evidence that much of the chemistry required for life has been found in places other than Earth, it makes the speculation that life exists plausible or reasonable.

As far as God is concerned, no precedent has been established, and no evidence has been given other than your assertion that order correlates with intelligence (which has been rebutted effectively by Crashfrog).

To me, the likelihood of life outside of Earth outweighs the alternative based on simple reason, no matter what the premises are:

If life emerges naturally when the required conditions are met, then I just observe how big the universe is and conclude that the likelihood that the required conditions are met somewhere else seems pretty high. Thus, I say, "I believe there is life elsewhere in the universe."

Or, if life is designed by a supernatural intelligent entity, then it seems strange for that entity to not use its space, unless, of course, it wanted us to grow and use all that space, in which case I'm pretty sure there were more effective ways to allow us to do it. Thus, I say, "I believe there is life elsewhere in the universe."

Believing things based on probabilities is not particularly scientific, but there are things for which I don't have the scientific credentials to address properly, nor the time for rigorous study on which to base scientific conclusions, and which I don't think are particularly important that I be right about, so I don't see much of a point in bothering to be scientific about it.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:52 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
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