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Author Topic:   Would confirmation of the "Biblical Exodus" add any support for God
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 56 (595376)
12-08-2010 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
12-07-2010 9:35 PM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
How can a piece of evidence be connected to the Biblical Exodus?
How could a chariot wheel be shown to be connected to the specific army mentioned in the story?
Would we need to know the characteristics of a the Egyptian chariots for a particular era?
To know that would we need to know precisely which Pharaoh?
I see this as only one part of the problem you've brought up in the OP, though. You say:
quote:
jar in Message 1:
But the key question is that even if we're able to reach some rough agreements about dates, events, travel routes, number of people, how does one get from "the Exodus happened" to "God exists"?
I think this is the more important questionas you call it, the 'key question'. If our goal is to address the issue of whether or not the God of the Exodus exists, we should first determine whether or not our particular type of evidence will be of any help in addressing this issue. Because the God of the Exodus certainly cannot be real if the Exodus never took place, showing that it did take place would be a good first step, in my opinion; especially since many of the events in the Exodus are difficult to grasp as being realistic, and so almost 'falsify by improbability' outright the God of the Exodus.
If, on the other hand, we are hoping that proof of the Exodus will somehow serve as proof of the God of the Exodus; the truth of the matter is that it won'tthere is no reason to even bother looking if this is what we want to do with our evidence.
We cannot prove the God of the Exodus merely by proving the Exodus.
We can, however, add support for the God of the Exodus by proving the Exodus.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 9:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 12-08-2010 10:03 AM Jon has replied
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 12-08-2010 12:07 PM Jon has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 56 (595377)
12-08-2010 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jon
12-08-2010 9:53 AM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
Jon writes:
We can, however, add support for the God of the Exodus by proving the Exodus.
How?
How would it be any different than the example regarding Zeus, Athena, Hera, Aphrodite or Eris?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 9:53 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 2:25 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 48 of 56 (595408)
12-08-2010 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jon
12-08-2010 9:53 AM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
Jon writes:
We cannot prove the God of the Exodus merely by proving the Exodus.
We can, however, add support for the God of the Exodus by proving the Exodus.
Does our knowledge of radium tell us anything about Madame Curie's God? Does what she believed about the metaphysical have any bearing at all on what she discovered about the physical?

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 9:53 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 2:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 56 (595413)
12-08-2010 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
12-08-2010 10:03 AM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
How would it be any different than the example regarding Zeus, Athena, Hera, Aphrodite or Eris?
It's not; 'Zeus of the Iliad' is made more plausiblethough an almost insignificant amountby finding Troy.
Evidence that Troy never existed falsifies 'Zeus of the Iliad'. Evidence that it did exist adds a small (really small) amount of support for 'Zeus of the Iliad'.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 12-08-2010 10:03 AM jar has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 56 (595414)
12-08-2010 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ringo
12-08-2010 12:07 PM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
The 'God of Madame Curie who worked with radium' is made more plausible if we can show that Madame Curie existed and that she did work with radium.
It proves nothing, but it does make such a God more plausible. If we find there was no Madame Curie, then we cannot have a 'God of Madame Curie'clearly. By searching for what would falsify our claim and finding that it does not falsify the claim, we add a small amount of support to our claim. No?
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 12-08-2010 12:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 12-08-2010 4:07 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 56 (595439)
12-08-2010 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Jon
12-08-2010 2:31 PM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
Jon writes:
If we find there was no Madame Curie, then we cannot have a 'God of Madame Curie'clearly.
Why not? Isn't the God of Madame Curie the same as the God of Gulliver? How do fictional references to a god make that god more or less real?
If the story of the Exodus was 100% accurate physically, I don't see how that adds to the plausibility of the God character in the story. Conversely, if the story was 100% false, I don't see how that subtracts from the plausibility of the God character.
To summarize, I don't see how you can connect the physical reality of the story to any metaphysical claims at all.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 2:31 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 4:56 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 56 (595454)
12-08-2010 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
12-08-2010 4:07 PM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
To summarize, I don't see how you can connect the physical reality of the story to any metaphysical claims at all.
You can, when the metaphysical claim links itself to that story.
Why not? Isn't the God of Madame Curie the same as the God of Gulliver? How do fictional references to a god make that god more or less real?
I take these 'God who did X's to be part of the definition of whatever God it is we are examining. Proving that X never happened clearly falsifies the statement 'There is a God who did X'. Such God cannot exist. Not that a 'God who didn't do X' cannot exist; but I don't see how that God is relevant to the topic of the other God. They're different Gods.
So if you want to talk about some 'God in general', I take that as an entirely different character (providing part of that character's description doesn't involve the Exodus). In which case, yes, I'd agree; proving Exodus has nothing to do with that God.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 12-08-2010 4:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 12-08-2010 5:17 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 53 of 56 (595466)
12-08-2010 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jon
12-08-2010 4:56 PM


Jon writes:
ringo writes:
I don't see how you can connect the physical reality of the story to any metaphysical claims at all.
You can, when the metaphysical claim links itself to that story.
How?
Jon writes:
Proving that X never happened clearly falsifies the statement 'There is a God who did X'.
I don't think it does. If a "murder" turns out to be a suicide, that doesn't mean that the suspect doesn't exist, only that he didn't do the deed. It may be incorrect to refer to him as a murderer but that's just an error of description. It doesn't make him vanish into oblivion.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 4:56 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 8:12 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 56 (595479)
12-08-2010 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
12-08-2010 5:17 PM


It may be incorrect to refer to him as a murderer but that's just an error of description. It doesn't make him vanish into oblivion.
'The man who killed John Doe' cannot exist if John Doe wasn't killed. I would consider 'The man who killed John Doe' and 'The man who didn't kill John Doe but was accused of killing John Doe' to be two separate conceptualizations that may, at different times, reference the same physical being. Obviously the changing of our conceptualizations does not impact the reality of the things to which those conceptualizations may refer in the physical world.
Now, this seems all silly when talking about actual things in the real world that we can see, touch, etc. But, this is not silly when talking about God (or pretty much any unevidenced being), because when it comes to God, all we have access to is our conceptualizations. Those conceptualizations are as close to the reality as we can ever hope to get; they are all we have to work with.
If we say that GOD is not affected by the evidence found in relation to the Exodus, then I would certainly agree. But when we start talking about God, who has a specific set of characteristics, then we can certainly disprove this critter by showing those characteristics to be incompatible with reality or logic. So, in the Exodus, we have 'God of the Exodus'; part of this God's characteristics is its doing of certain things. Thus, the 'God of the Exodus' is 'The God who made the east wind blow', 'The God who tossed the Egyptians into the sea', among other things. Showing these characteristics to be incompatible with reality (or logic) makes it impossible for the 'God of the Exodus' to be real. It would be like falsifying any fictional character or other figment of the human imagination. Whether based on real beings or not (the God of the Exodus may be), we can still disprove the character.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 12-08-2010 5:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 12-08-2010 10:11 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 55 of 56 (595497)
12-08-2010 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
12-08-2010 8:12 PM


Jon writes:
If we say that GOD is not affected by the evidence found in relation to the Exodus, then I would certainly agree. But when we start talking about God, who has a specific set of characteristics, then we can certainly disprove this critter by showing those characteristics to be incompatible with reality or logic.
Like I said, you're just quibbling about the description of God. A few discrepancies in the description have no bearing on the existence of God or GOD. Your approach is a waste of time.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 8:12 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 56 of 56 (595502)
12-08-2010 10:52 PM


Topic drift alert - Messages should have an explicit connection to the Exodus
The topic should remain in firm contact with considerations of the Exodus, and not devolve into a broad based "what supports the existence of God" type topic.
Please, even if one or more members shoot too far off on a tangent, that doesn't mean it's justified other members to follow. Reply to the on-topic parts of messages and ignore the off-topic parts of messages.
It may not be the last word on what the topic theme is, but hopefully the topic title is a pretty useful guide. In this topics case, it is. Pay attention to topic titles.
It's a big admin pain to need to be plastering off-topic banners on messages.
As always, do not reply to this moderation message. Consult the index of important topics (found at the topic of the page) to find the proper place, if you really feel the need to make a reply.
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Left out a word.

  
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