Obama

No one sees your arguments when you include personal attacks in them. Basically all I know from debating with you is you think I am an idiot and you suffer from unrequited man love for Obama. Everything else has been lost because your venomous responses. Try being less of an asshole and we may actually listen to your arguments.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Wrong.

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H.R. 6304 ensures the dismissal of all cases pending against the telecommunication companies that facilitated the warrantless wiretapping programs over the last 7 years. The test in the bill is not whether the government certifications were actually legal — only whether they were issued. Because it is public knowledge that they were, all the cases seeking to find out what these companies and the government did with our communications will be killed

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(Of course you've never been fair in this entire debate, have you?)Then again your take on this dopes nothing to absolve Obama. Lets look at everything the ACLU had to see about this bill.

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H.R. 6304 permits the government to conduct mass, untargeted surveillance of all communications coming into and out of the United States, without any individualized review, and without any finding of wrongdoing.

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H.R. 6304 permits only minimal court oversight. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA Court) only reviews general procedures for targeting and minimizing the use of information that is collected. The court may not know who, what or where will actually be tapped.

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H.R. 6304 contains a general ban on reverse targeting. However, it lacks stronger language that was contained in prior House bills that included clear statutory directives about when the government should return to the FISA court and obtain an individualized order if it wants to continue listening to a US person’s communications.

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H.R.6304 contains an exigent circumstance loophole that thwarts the prior judicial review requirement. The bill permits the government to start a spying program and wait to go to court for up to 7 days every time intelligence important to the national security of the US may be lost or not timely acquired. By definition, court applications take time and will delay the collection of information. It is highly unlikely there is a situation where this exception doesn’t swallow the rule.

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H.R. 6304 further trivializes court review by explicitly permitting the government to continue surveillance programs even if the application is denied by the court. The government has the authority to wiretap through the entire appeals process, and then keep and use whatever it gathered in the meantime.

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H.R. 6304 ensures the dismissal of all cases pending against the telecommunication companies that facilitated the warrantless wiretapping programs over the last 7 years. The test in the bill is not whether the government certifications were actually legal — only whether they were issued. Because it is public knowledge that they were, all the cases seeking to find out what these companies and the government did with our communications will be killed.

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Members of Congress not on Judiciary or Intelligence Committees are NOT guaranteed access to reports from the Attorney General, Director of National Intelligence, and Inspector General.

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Looks pretty neocon to me. Lets look what Bernie has to say on this.

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During that campaign, I was very clear that while I opposed the Brady Bill because I felt the handgun waiting period coul be dealt with at the state level, I supported a ban on certain types of assault weapons, which was clearly a national issue...
(I should add that in 1992, '94 and '96, the NRA strongly opposed me)

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Do not paint the liberal icon Bernie Sanders as soft on gun control. There was obviously a strong liberal reason for his stand on the Brady Bill. Where is the liberal stand Obama made on FISA. There is also a huge difference between not supporting and supporting. How are these conservative/liberal issues? Gambling is actually something I would think would have more liberal support than conservative, but it is in no way a conservative/liberal issue.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Of course it is. It was a vote to make illegal wiretapping retroactively legal. In other words if the government requested the wiretapping the bill retroactively made all illegal wiretapping legal. No you are not. There was a liberal reason for Sanders vote. (as shown by Sanders own words) You have yet to show a liberal reason for Obama's FISA vote.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Government instructions that were illegal when they were made.lets look at1) Governemnt makes a request of telecom to allow a wiretap that is illegal according to existing law.
2) Telecom facilitates the illegal wiretap.
3) Congress passes a law that says no one can sue for the wiretap, because it is now retroactively legal.How is this not making the illegal, legal. What affect does civil or criminal courts have to do on the legality? The reason the cases were in the civil courts is because the telecoms had allowed illegal activity. You are trying to confuse the issue(poorly I might add) by throwing in this claim of conflation.Also included in the bill is this that I posted earlier.

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H.R. 6304 permits the government to conduct mass, untargeted surveillance of all communications coming into and out of the United States, without any individualized review, and without any finding of wrongdoing.

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Prior to H.R 6304 this was illegal. Now it is legal. How is that not making illegal wiretapping legal?Now again I ask you to defend your argument. What were the liberal values Obama was advocating for in this vote?You call yourself a liberal and you attack Bernie Sanders? You are an Obama centrist. Bernie is leading the good fight.
You should learn to be proud of what you are. I am.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Who is upset? Projecting a little maybe. Why would I be upset? I always knew he was not a liberal.There is the rub. You keep making this claim about dying on some hill. If he were so liberal he would make some sort of liberal stand on something. It isn't compromise when you are always giving in.If you cannot see how this law made what was previously illegal now legal, then there is no longer discussing it with you.If you cannot understand the concept that something was once illegal and the law changed it to legal and then claim that the law did not make the illegal legal then there is no point in discussing this with you.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I will give him this one.But he is still not a liberal on gay marriage. He is very right center on gay marriage.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Wow. I can not believe you used that as justification.I guess you feel that the everyone should have gone with the majority and we should have declined give voting rights to blacks. You do realize that there is such a thing as the tyranny of the majority.Also, it does not matter what the majority wants a liberal president would fight for and maintain the moral and ethical highground on this.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Torture is something he has direct control over. He is the COC and all the intelligence agencies are in the executive branch and ultimately report to him.Tell me how he has no control over torture by US forces and US intelligence agencies. Does congress have to some how vote to end torture? How is congress stopping him? What are the structural obstacles to just stopping torture?

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest VideosPoll data is from 2005.I didn't realize the President was bound by or should govern by polls.I guess it is the new liberalism

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

If not the President, then who the hell controls them? They do fall under the executive branch. Or didn't you know that?Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts