Obama

And you made the same mistake in that thread as you're now doing here. Many claim he is a conservative, not that he isn't progressive. You can be both progressive and conservative.Taz didn't say he liked Hilary because she was more progressive, he said he felt Obama was too conservative by comparison. There is plenty of doubt about this.- Oni

How can China, Cuba and the Soviet Union be communist if the state owns everything and controls everything?Marxism/Communism is when the working class would gain control the government and that would eventually lead to a classless state. The rest is a collection of variations like Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism and Maoism.And these aren't communism, they are totalitarianism. Totalitarianism

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Total (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state, usually under the control of a single political person, faction, or class, recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.

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- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Right, but not that he isn't a progressive, or has progressive intentions. At least I didn't claim this, nor Drone, in the last thread. It had nothing to do with how progressive his admin or his policies were.He is more conservative than liberal, making him more of a moderate IMO. Before confusion sets in again, I'll agree that that is the definition we're using. Policies, yes, and it would not reflect on Obama himself. But when he himself shares his opinions about intervention or change, and those opinions reflect that of Burkean conservatism, it leaves little room for doubt about his stance.He is a moderate, IMO. I don't think there ever was 60 that supported it, I think I read some figure around 40 maybe close to 50? I don't recall.But what does that have to do with the doubt that some of have about Obama's liberalism?- Oni

In Cuba, where I have the most knowledge on, nothing remotely close to that is offerd to the workers.The state owns everything, there is no private business other than to foreign companies, and the state controls all aspects of media, news, tourism, etc.It would be very incorrect to call that communism.- Oni

Would you agree that there are conservative progressives? These are not super-duper-secret opinions, these are nationally broadcast speeches that he's made in support of a more conservative approach with certain issues. Such as the case with Iraq. No argument there. As both Drone and I pointed out (granted, you didn't agree with us) the HCR bill was a pro-Big Pharm/Big Insurance bill. Control of drug prices and a agreed upon increase in clients helped out these two industries more so than it helped the average American. Just as a continued war in Afghanistan only helps out the Defense Industry.Both are signs of a president that supports big business, and are not indicative of a liberal president. This is recognized but irrelvant to the fact that Obama has expressed his own views, and these views tend to sometimes lean further to the right than what would be considered by many of us, liberal. But my doubts aren't based on that, even if I'm wrong. So IMO there are other issues to deal with other than the public option. If we elect a liberal president, we should get a liberal president, regardless of the government. But regardless of the government, I believe Obama is a moderate.- Oni

I didn't think it was that difficult of a question. Do you think someone can be progressive and still maintain some non-liberal leaning opinions? Do you think it's black and white, or are there gray areas? Many conservatives wanted that too.As I pointed out in the Palin thread, the invasion of Iraq and the attempt to change that society through abstract (republican) theory is the very thing Burke argued against in Reflections on the Revolution in France.source

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Obama said in 2002: I know that a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, of undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without international support will fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than the best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al Qaeda. I'm not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

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As I wrote in the other thread, this is something Burke would have agreed with. These are some of the principles of conservatism. However, I do recognize the issue in the US with the word conservative. When the representatives are Bush Jr. and Sr., who are not themselves true conservatives, it brings about confusion.For the insurance stuff there are two open threads we can go to, so we don't get too off topic here. Health care reform almost at the finish line...Healthcare in the USALets hash it out there since I have also left plenty of references to articles that are relevant to the debate. If you want to. Are you saying that Republicans and/or conservatives don't want to create jobs, have affordable healthcare, see to the education of our children, want an eventual safe end to the two wars...? That's just stupid. Every American wants that. Its how you approach all of those issues that is the important part. I know you feel that way, but many don't.- Oni

You, sir, will get no argument from me, because that was hilarious. - Oni

Then don't go to Canada who has the Conservative Progressive Party. You'll be baffled and probably shocked by that wacky mulato political party. Well, when they make their comparison based on Bush Jr. being the mark for conservatism, then say Obama continues Bush's policies and thus he is a conservative too, it is completely wrong. It's a complete misrepresentation of conservatism, Bush and Obama. There are real reasons why Obama shows signs of leaning a bit toward conservatism and those signs are not that he is Bush-like in his policies. Which you agree with. Like I said, it is the approach, not in the actual problem. The are not opposed to creating jobs. No they are not. They may not approve of the presidents way of getting it, but they all want affordable insurance for everyone. Themselves included, who, if you've checked the polls, are also poor, of low income and middle class as well. But not opposed to educating children. Again, its the approach to solving the issues that divides everyone.We all want the same thing, though. One guy? One guy represents every American who is republican and/or conservative?Most Americans when polled want the same thing. Politicians are a separate issue. They are agenda driven and full of shit, most of the time. I'll give you climate change but only because I don't know much about it. But every American wants the same thing, affordable insurance, education for their kids, and they want jobs. It is stupid to think otherwise.You're just talking about politicians within the republican party, I'm talking about the general public.- Oni

And lets not forget pizza is delicious. That, and your comment, should top off the list of shit that are irrelvant to my point. Sorry, but I don't even think you're doing that if you are calling Bush a conservative. No political science major would agree with you. I mean at this point fuck it, up is down, left is right and backward is actually forward.Anything goes in modern US politics apparently. He can speak all he wants, no one has to agree with him. I left out the "government" part for a reason, to again articulate the fact that it is in the approach that people are separated.Again, they are not opposed to jobs being created, they may simply oppose to the Democrat's method. Not that I agree with either method in particular, just that the end result is what EVERYONE is trying to achieve. You're only coming to this conclusion because they didn't support Obama's HCP. You sound like Bush when he said the terrorist are after your freedom. When asked why? Because they don't support America or our policies. Well, that's a very poorly constructed conclusion, as is yours. You find me one poll that says the majority of American republican voters don't want low-income people to have affordable healthcare. One.I have plenty of friend who are republicans, granted they are very liberal republicans. None of them would ever say what you are claiming. None would say that they don't want jobs to be created, or low-income people to have affordable healthcare, or that they don't want our children to have a good education.Their methods to achieve this may differ from yours, but the end result is the same for everyone across the board. I can't believe you've just called every republican voter a creationist. Are you fucking with me, insane, or just having fun? So that's what my dad has been up to! Trying to take over the US. I'll remember to punch him right in the crotch the next time I see him. Maybe so, but they want decent jobs, an education for their children and affordable healthcare just the same. They may have a different way to go about getting it, but the end result is the same arcoss the board.- Oni

Honest, I don't think the average American voter on the left or right has any real firm understanding of the current healthcare bill. They may be listening to the talking heads on TV that scare them into voting one way or the other by lying to them about long lines, death panels, etc. The problem is that they have real, valid questions, that we all have, they're just getting their ansers from the wrong people.There is a party at fault in this, and that's the Democratic party who doesn't have the answers to the questions that everyone is asking. They have failed, simple as that. Not that it was entirely their fault, surely I can agree with that. But it is what it is nonetheless.Most, if not all, Americans are concerned for the future. One side chooses to listen to one camp, the other side listens to the other camp. Guess what, both camps suck. Now what? When will you guys learn to shift your blame to the media and the propaganda machine that makes up these fucking lies? Shift the blame to the politicians who are doing the lying. To the pundits orchestrating the whole thing. To the media outlets who are going for ratings rather than showing proper, unbias news. This is who's to blame, not some poor shmuck who goes to work every day and listens to 20 minutes of news.Americans don't have the time and effort to give a fuck about what goes on behind closed doors, they don't have time to google every word that is said in the media. They turn the TV on, watch whatever news source they're used to watching, and whatever is said they pretty much trust. Why? Because they have their lives, kids, jobs, spouses, little league practice, school functions, etc, etc, etc, to keep them busy and distracted.I've been preaching this shit since I came to this site. The problem is NOT the voter, the problem is those that influnce voters through deceptive measures.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Even the democrats have given up on the democrats, crash. Yours is just a very bias, media friendly opinion that, as usual, paints the democratic party as the party of solutions. When, the reality is, there is no difference between either party. They both cater to special interest groups and never the people. All governments HAVE TO BE conservative. Really? What is that, to get to 17000 posts before anyone else?I admit I do shit all day and work a few hours at night, so I have a certain advantage. The average American has enough distractions to deal with that I don't expect them to spend 2 hours researching what issues are going on. No one in the political arena ever does anything for the people, crash. Take the blinders off, your as guilded by the propaganda as creationist are.- Oni

Is that a serious question? You're as confusing as crash is. What conservatives are scaring people? Are you talking about the republican party or just any person who is conservative? Are you saying politicians are doing the scaring or TV pundits? Do you have a figure as to how many people, voters, want a significant portion of the population to not have any healthcare, or is this something YOU heard from a TV pundit? It's easy to call someone an idiot and dismiss them as dumber than you. Because the hard problem is facing the fact that the media, which your government is in bed with, is lying to you ON BOTH SIDES of the spectrum. You call them stupid for believe Fox News, and they call you stupid for believe CNN or whatever mainstream crap you might watch.You're both drinking the KoolAid, bro. A divided people can never rise up against the corrupt government, and as long as you stay divided thinking you know best, you'll play right into the game. The media turns you on your neighbor and gets you to focus on their short comings so you're distracted from the big picture. The media has been corrupted, on both sides of the party lines. That's the real enemy, not some poor dude that happens to buy into what they say, and inturn makes you feel like the smart guy on the block. It's a false sense of inteligence that you and crash carry, and sadly you are as unaware of it as the one's you call stupid. Focus on the one's doing the lying. Don't get mad at those being bullied, man up and fight the bully. Again, its easy to call everyone stupid and feel satisfied, because the real problem is the hard problem and we are all lazy ass fucktards who'd rather talk shit than do shit, me included. But at least I focus my anger and blame on the one's responsible, not the one's who don't know better.- Oni

And how many viewers does Beck have? Why would you think that the general public, those who are republican and/or conservative, share his same opinion?Can't you see that Beck's bullshit is having the reverse effect on you? You don't obviously believe Beck's crap, but you believe that conservatives and republicans believe Beck's crap, and so you build this almost hatred toward them. Why don't you just blame Fox News? It's implied in your comments, dude. That's what I'm trying to get at, WHO believes that? All conservatives? All republicans? Some? A small percentage? Only those who listen to Beck? Only the politicians? Who?If you were able to figure it out what makes you think most people haven't? I mean, he IS the president and was voted such by a HUGE majority. So who really believes this stuff? You have clearly pointed out that Fox News is the source of the lies, yes?You then focus your anger on the people who believe it by-passing the source of the problem! How many? Are they just conservatives or do you mean republicans too? Is it all of them or a just a small percentage of those that listen to Beck? Of course, but lets follow what you say next. Which leads us back to finding the source of the misinformation. Some cashier in Alabama didn't come up with that bit of information. It wasn't the guy that works at Best Buy. It wasn't the law offices of Goldstein and (insert jewish name here).Well then Taz, who do YOU think introduced that outright lie into society about Obama being a Muslim? And don't say the media because then you'll sound as crazy as me. Who was the original source of that information? These are people with real problems, real issues, they have real questions about the economy, their jobs, their kids education, their healthcare, just like you and me and everyone else. I, like you, disagree with their source of news, but any mainstream media source is going to be shit anyway. Also, if the other party doesn't do anything in the way of helping society, then the answers that they, you and I have go unanswered, then the blame game starts.What we are left with is two sides of the general public at each others throat, all the while the politicians and the media move forward with their individual agendas provoking both sides to continue to hate each other. Nothing gets fixed, nothing gets resolved, people continue to build on their hate, and everyone thinks their side is the right side. It will never amount to anything of worth so long as this is the norm in America. Fuck, I hate to sound corney but it is true that together we'll stand and divided we will fall. And right now, we are very very divided.We are letting these right-wing organizations, media outlets and politicians organize and manipulate everyone. Then, instead of taking it out on the right-wing cunts, we take it out on the general public. We are failing to organize these people, this is our fault. The lefts fault.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Like the middle class?- Oni

What are you fucking insane? The dude has repeatedly told you it was the size of the embassy that was his concern."And it's not going anywhere" while vague as to the meaning should have been cleared up when he specifically said, it was the size I was concerned about.For fuck sakes, its a good thread lets not start acting like a bunch of bitches now and ruin it.- Oni