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Author Topic:   How Creationism Explains Hominid Fossil Skulls (FINAL STATEMENTS ONLY)
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1802 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 91 of 137 (601561)
01-21-2011 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ICANT
01-21-2011 6:32 AM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
ICANT writes:

But if you got 330 different species of foraminifera you still only got one critter.

Wiki writes:

The taxonomic position of Foraminifera has varied since their recognition as protozoa (protists) by Schultze in 1854,[8] most often being referred to as an order, but sometimes a class

In that case if order a human & a lemur are the same critter, if class a human & an elephant are the same critter.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 6:32 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1683
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 92 of 137 (601563)
01-21-2011 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ICANT
01-19-2011 1:28 AM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
All 330 different species is classified as the same critter, a foraminifera.

Make up you mind ICant, earlier you said that the criteria that defines what a "critter" is:

they can produce offspring that can produce offspring.

if they're different species that means they can't produce offspring, ergo by your definition of "critter" the foraminifera are actually 330 different "critters".

Edited by DrJones*, : my typing sucks

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 01-19-2011 1:28 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 2:28 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 93 of 137 (601566)
01-21-2011 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Taq
01-21-2011 11:06 AM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Hi Taq,

Taq writes:

Which of the fossils in the post above are different critters from humans, and what criteria are you using?

Which one is less than 10,000 years old?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Taq, posted 01-21-2011 11:06 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Blue Jay, posted 01-21-2011 2:24 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 102 by Taq, posted 01-21-2011 4:37 PM ICANT has responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 94 of 137 (601568)
01-21-2011 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
01-21-2011 2:09 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Hi, ICANT.

ICANT writes:

Taq writes:

Which of the fossils in the post above are different critters from humans, and what criteria are you using?

Which one is less than 10,000 years old?

Two problems:

  1. Circular argument: you believe that humans are less than 10,000 years old. In order to support this, you need something other than the age that comes to the same conclusion.

  2. The 1 species of hominid that is less than 10,000 years old is identical to some hominids that are more than 10,000 years old, so the age doesn't help you much anyway.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 2:09 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 2:47 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 95 of 137 (601569)
01-21-2011 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by DrJones*
01-21-2011 1:20 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Hi Dr,

DrJones* writes:

Make up you mind ICant, earlier you said that the criteria that defines what a "critter" is:

Quit putting words in my mouth.

I said in answer to the following question from Taq.

Taq writes:

How do you determine if one critter has become another critter? What are the criteria you are using? Isn't a chihuahua a different critter than wolves?

Just a different species of the same critter.

It would be physically impossible for a chihuahau and a wolf to breed.

Just as it would be a physical impossibility for the stallion and mare in my avatar to breed.

Since I am told here that if they can't breed they are a different species I made the statement: "Just a different species of the same critter".

Would you classify the two horses in my avatar as different critters?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by DrJones*, posted 01-21-2011 1:20 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Blue Jay, posted 01-21-2011 2:48 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 01-21-2011 4:40 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 96 of 137 (601571)
01-21-2011 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Blue Jay
01-21-2011 2:24 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Hi jay,

Bluejay writes:

Circular argument: you believe that humans are less than 10,000 years old. In order to support this, you need something other than the age that comes to the same conclusion.

But I do have other information it is called "God's Word".

According to God's Word modern man can not be more than 10,000 years old.

Does that mean they would be a lot different from their predecessors? Not necessarly because the designer would only make revisions and addtions to the original design to produce the modern man.

Bluejay writes:

The 1 species of hominid that is less than 10,000 years old is identical to some hominids that are more than 10,000 years old, so the age doesn't help you much anyway.

We have buried capsules with things from the present in case we cease to exist and another inhabit our land one day so they can find it and know about our civilization.

If the inhabitants of the earth of 30,000 years ago were the same as modern man where is their information they left for us to find?

If they were not capable of leaving that iformation then they are not the same as modern man, we have planted the information.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Blue Jay, posted 01-21-2011 2:24 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Dirk, posted 01-21-2011 3:48 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2011 4:37 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 01-21-2011 4:54 PM ICANT has not yet responded
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 97 of 137 (601572)
01-21-2011 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICANT
01-21-2011 2:28 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Hi, ICANT.

ICANT writes:

Since I am told here that if they can't breed they are a different species I made the statement: "Just a different species of the same critter".

Would you classify the two horses in my avatar as different critters?

This actually makes a lot of sense, ICANT.

Still, I'm bit confused about where this leaves your argument in terms of "transmutation." Let me ask a few questions:

Do you accept that mutations accumulate steadily over time?

Do you accept that physical changes often accompany mutations?

Do you accept that reproductive isolation would allow different sets of mutations and accompanying physical changes to accumulate over time?

Do you accept that the hominid skulls in that picture you've been talking about display physical changes that could be related to mutations?

Do you accept that this would be evolution?


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 2:28 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 3:22 PM Blue Jay has responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 98 of 137 (601576)
01-21-2011 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Blue Jay
01-21-2011 2:48 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Hi jay,

Bluejay writes:

This actually makes a lot of sense, ICANT.

Still, I'm bit confused about where this leaves your argument in terms of "transmutation." Let me ask a few questions:

OK

Bluejay writes:

Do you accept that mutations accumulate steadily over time?

I don't know if they accumulate steadlly or sporadically over time. But mutations good and bad do happen.

Isn't cancer a mutation?
Isn't plaque a mutation?
In fact isn't all our physical problems caused by a mutation?

Bluejay writes:

Do you accept that physical changes often accompany mutations?

I sure do. At one time I could bench press 400 lbs. Now I have a problem with a hundred lb sack of salt.

Bluejay writes:

Do you accept that reproductive isolation would allow different sets of mutations and accompanying physical changes to accumulate over time?

Sure it is possible. But if the DNA is the same to begin with they could end up with the same sets of mutations regardless of their location.

Bluejay writes:

Do you accept that the hominid skulls in that picture you've been talking about display physical changes that could be related to mutations?

Sure they could be related to mutations.

They could also be related to different beginnings of different creatures.
The Bible does not give a complete picture only a snapshot of the beginning and then the condition of the earth in Genesis 1:2. Since God has been around for eternity past I can't imagine Him being idle all that time. God began his creation in the beginning with the Heaven and Earth. After that He created a lot of creatures on Earth. He did not cease creating until Genesis 2:3 which was 6 to 10 thousand years ago.

Bluejay writes:

Do you accept that this would be evolution?

I think I would call it the opposite of evolution as it seems that when enough time has passed everything becomes extinct. A fact that has accelerated since modern man appeared on Earth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Blue Jay, posted 01-21-2011 2:48 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Coragyps, posted 01-21-2011 3:35 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 100 by DrJones*, posted 01-21-2011 3:40 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 105 by Taq, posted 01-21-2011 4:50 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 109 by Blue Jay, posted 01-21-2011 8:44 PM ICANT has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5299
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 99 of 137 (601577)
01-21-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ICANT
01-21-2011 3:22 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Isn't cancer a mutation?
Isn't plaque a mutation?
In fact isn't all our physical problems caused by a mutation?
***
I sure do. At one time I could bench press 400 lbs. Now I have a problem with a hundred lb sack of salt.

QFT.

You've been here since March 2007 and still have learned nothing about biology? Wow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 3:22 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1683
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 100 of 137 (601578)
01-21-2011 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ICANT
01-21-2011 3:22 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
I think I would call it the opposite of evolution as it seems that when enough time has passed everything becomes extinct

Why do you think that evolution promises that things won't go extinct?


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 3:22 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Dirk
Member (Idle past 1636 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 101 of 137 (601579)
01-21-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ICANT
01-21-2011 2:47 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Hi ICANT,

If the inhabitants of the earth of 30,000 years ago were the same as modern man where is their information they left for us to find?

Information on early humans is in the ground; such places are usually called 'archaeological sites'.

If they were not capable of leaving that iformation then they are not the same as modern man, we have planted the information.

This is of course silly. The fact that they did not leave information intended for later generations (as far as we can test) does not mean that they were incapable of doing so. It might just as well be that they felt that it was not necessary or that they in fact did leave time capsules but that they did not survive or that we do not recognize them. I for sure have no intention whatsoever to leave a time capsule; does that mean that I am not a 'modern man'?

Edited by Dirk, : clarify


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 2:47 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 102 of 137 (601582)
01-21-2011 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
01-21-2011 2:09 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Which one is less than 10,000 years old?

Since you don't accept radiometric dating you will have to tell me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 2:09 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2011 3:12 PM Taq has responded

New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 103 of 137 (601583)
01-21-2011 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ICANT
01-21-2011 2:47 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
We have buried capsules with things from the present in case we cease to exist and another inhabit our land one day so they can find it and know about our civilization.

If the inhabitants of the earth of 30,000 years ago were the same as modern man where is their information they left for us to find?

In Iraq in the Shanidar Cave.

Neanderthals, who lived > 10,000 years ago, held burial rituals for thier dead.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/...etons-of-Shanidar-Cave.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 2:47 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 104 of 137 (601584)
01-21-2011 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICANT
01-21-2011 2:28 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Would you classify the two horses in my avatar as different critters?

I wouldn't classify any two living species as different critters. I would, however, classify them as different species if there were a population of large horses and small horses with no genetic flow between the populations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 2:28 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 105 of 137 (601586)
01-21-2011 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ICANT
01-21-2011 3:22 PM


Re: Transmutation vs Evolution, Macro & Micro
Isn't cancer a mutation?
Isn't plaque a mutation?
In fact isn't all our physical problems caused by a mutation?

Seriously? Read up on the difference between somatic mutations and germ line mutations. Also read up on plaque (hint: microorganisms). Also, if someone breaks their leg in a car accident is that due to a mutation? You have heard of "wear and tear" have you not?

Sure it is possible. But if the DNA is the same to begin with they could end up with the same sets of mutations regardless of their location.

False. Mutations are random so each population will accumulate DIFFERENT mutations which causes the two populations to diverge over time. The more time that passes the less similar the populations are.

They could also be related to different beginnings of different creatures.

Based on what evidence?

I think I would call it the opposite of evolution as it seems that when enough time has passed everything becomes extinct.

Obviously, not all lineages went extinct. Do you ever think these things through?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2011 3:22 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 01-22-2011 2:40 PM Taq has responded

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