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Author Topic:   Evil Muslim conspiracy...
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 106 of 189 (600337)
01-14-2011 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phage0070
01-14-2011 12:32 AM


Criticizing a hasty generalization with a hasty generalization isn't very compelling. Or honest.

Which part of the phrase: "It sometimes seems as though ..." was a generalization?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 12:32 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 2:02 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 107 of 189 (600338)
01-14-2011 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by ApostateAbe
01-14-2011 12:18 AM


Re: The true faith of Islam
That was the politically correct and diplomatic thing for Bush to say, and he has not gotten nearly enough credit for it, though it did help to control the criticism that the wars were anti-Islamic in nature. That isn't quite the same as actually believing it.

So what he said was wrong ... but at least he was deliberately lying?

It really is something that a Muslim or a liberal would have tend to believe. Islam is many things, but it is not an especially peaceful religion.

I still don't see what this has to do with liberals; but surely the more Muslims believe that Islam is "a religion of peace", the better. If only, for example, Osama Bin Laden had been convinced of that point of view, New York would have more skyscrapers and fewer dead people.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-14-2011 12:18 AM ApostateAbe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-14-2011 1:19 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 189 (600339)
01-14-2011 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ApostateAbe
01-14-2011 12:43 AM


Re: The true faith of Islam
The "No True Scotsman" fallacy is when someone tries to shift a claim proved false into one which is true by altering their original statement to only include data which agrees with their statement. For example:

"No Scotsman would ever perform such a cowardly bombing!"

(Scotsman bombs some place...)

"Err.. No "True" Scotsman would ever have performed such a bombing!"

I'm not saying he is committing that fallacy, only that he is using the wording of seeming to talk about Islam but is actually referring to some private special subsection of Islam where his statement is correct.

A tautology isn't really a logical fallacy though. Its simply a statement which is self-referentially correct, like A=A. Bush was defining a subsection which may or may not exist and presenting that as if it meant something other than simply defining itself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-14-2011 12:43 AM ApostateAbe has not yet responded

  
ApostateAbe
Member (Idle past 1127 days)
Posts: 175
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Joined: 02-02-2005


Message 109 of 189 (600340)
01-14-2011 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2011 1:09 AM


Re: The true faith of Islam
quote:
So what he said was wrong ... but at least he was deliberately lying?

For sure. I would very much hold it against him if he actually told the truth. Anything the POTUS says can cost lives.
quote:
I still don't see what this has to do with liberals; but surely the more Muslims believe that Islam is "a religion of peace", the better. If only, for example, Osama Bin Laden had been convinced of that point of view, New York would have more skyscrapers and fewer dead people.
Absolutely. If all Muslims believed that Islam is a religion of peace and they acted accordingly, then Islam would be a religion of peace. The majority really do believe that Islam is a religion of peace, and they are against violence. The main problem seems to be that all of them encourage absolute belief in the Koran, which is filled with the encouragement of violence and hatred. Muslims live in the modern time, and they try to believe holy scriptures from a medieval time period. This means that anyone who could be inclined to violence will find all the justification and moral support they need in the Koran.

Edited by ApostateAbe, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 1:09 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 2:55 AM ApostateAbe has responded
 Message 122 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-14-2011 12:16 PM ApostateAbe has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 189 (600345)
01-14-2011 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2011 1:03 AM


Dr Adequate writes:

Which part of the phrase: "It sometimes seems as though ..." was a generalization?

Fine then. Apparently, sometimes you seem as though you are making hasty generalizations.

Better?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 1:03 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 2:17 AM Phage0070 has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 111 of 189 (600347)
01-14-2011 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phage0070
01-14-2011 2:02 AM


Fine then. Apparently, sometimes you seem as though you are making hasty generalizations.

Could you give an example? So far, you have only cited a case in which I am very obviously not making a generalization at any particular speed.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 2:02 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 2:21 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 189 (600348)
01-14-2011 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2011 2:17 AM


Is this on topic or are you just trying to be contrary?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 2:17 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 3:00 AM Phage0070 has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 113 of 189 (600350)
01-14-2011 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ApostateAbe
01-14-2011 1:19 AM


Re: The true faith of Islam
For sure. I would very much hold it against him if he actually told the truth. Anything the POTUS says can cost lives.

Apparently the Prophet would approve ...

"He who makes peace between people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." - Muhammad, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Hadith 857.

Maybe Bush is one of those Stealth Muslims.

Absolutely. If all Muslims believed that Islam is a religion of peace and they acted accordingly, then Islam would be a religion of peace. The majority really do believe that Islam is a religion of peace, and they are against violence. The main problem seems to be that all of them encourage absolute belief in the Koran, which is filled with the encouragement of violence and hatred.

"God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable." Quran 60:8

"Repel (evil) with what is better. Then will he, between whom and thee was hatred, become as it were thy friend and intimate. And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint." Quran 41:34-35

"Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden (paradise) whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous - Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity or in adversity, who restrain (their) anger and pardon (all) men - for God loves those who do good." Quran 3:133-134

"The (true) servants of (God) the Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, reply with (words of) peace." Quran, 25:63

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors." Quran 2:190

"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them." Deuteronomy 20:10-17

Muslims live in the modern time, and they try to believe holy scriptures from a medieval time period. This means that anyone who could be inclined to violence will find all the justification and moral support they need in the Koran.

... or the Bible.

Basically the Abrahamic religions were all a bad idea. However, I'd take the Quran over the OT if I had to choose; because self-defense is often justifiable and genocidal aggression isn't.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-14-2011 1:19 AM ApostateAbe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-14-2011 9:36 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 114 of 189 (600351)
01-14-2011 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phage0070
01-14-2011 2:21 AM


Is this on topic or are you just trying to be contrary?

If post #110 was on topic, then my post replying to it was neither off-topic nor contrary; if it wasn't, then my post replying to it was off-topic but was still not contrary --- since I did not disagree with you, but just asked for examples of what you were talking about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 2:21 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 3:08 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 189 (600354)
01-14-2011 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2011 3:00 AM


Very well, an example is where you quoted a conservative and then expressed the view that sometimes conservativism appeared to revolve around lying about liberals. Were you to simply have stated the opinion without the quote it could be assumed that you were drawing upon your past experience. However, in combination with the quote it appeared that you considered the quote to be supporting evidence of your occasional view.

One quote is of course not representative of the ideology as a whole. Indeed the entirety of your personal experiences are not necessarily representative either, but would be much less of a generalization than a single quotation from a single person.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 3:00 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 3:25 AM Phage0070 has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 116 of 189 (600355)
01-14-2011 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phage0070
01-14-2011 3:08 AM


Well, that made little sense.

I maintain that on this side of the looking glass it is not a generalization, hasty or otherwise, to say that something is (or seems to be) sometimes true.

If, for example, I say that some cars are red, this is not a hasty generalization, even if I have just seen a red car.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 3:08 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 3:27 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 189 (600356)
01-14-2011 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2011 3:25 AM


Dr Adequate writes:

If, for example, I say that some cars are red, this is not a hasty generalization, even if I have just seen a red car.

True, but if you see a red car and you say that sometimes it seems that all cars are red, that is a hasty generalization. And thats a lot closer to what you did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 3:25 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 3:51 AM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 118 of 189 (600357)
01-14-2011 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phage0070
01-14-2011 3:27 AM


True, but if you see a red car and you say that sometimes it seems that all cars are red, that is a hasty generalization.

And if one day I see a hundred cars go by and all of them are red, then that is one of those times that it seems as though all cars are red.

Quite probably there are, somewhere, some conservatives who have an ideology which they could advocate in positive terms; but lately they appear to have been shouted down by conservatives whose only method of recommending themselves to me is by badmouthing liberals and promising to defend me from Stealth Muslim Marxist Death Panels who want to Take My Guns Away so that The Terrorists Will Win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phage0070, posted 01-14-2011 3:27 AM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
ApostateAbe
Member (Idle past 1127 days)
Posts: 175
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Joined: 02-02-2005


Message 119 of 189 (600373)
01-14-2011 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Dr Adequate
01-14-2011 2:55 AM


Re: The true faith of Islam
Dr Adequate, perhaps, then, Islam is not a religion of peace, but more of a religion of retribution and self-defense. Some have criticized Christianity for its commands to "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies." Certainly, those are not the best passages to turn to in times of military threats. But, when you have passages like these:

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

Then tell me which religion is the religion of peace. Those passages mean that you get justification for the sort of endless exchanges of revenge you see in Palestine, where Israel is seen by Muslims as the eternal oppressor, and no peace can ever be attained.

[60:9]Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

[Deuteronomy 20:10-17] When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them.

See? Ancient Judaism was a religion of peace! They much preferred to peaceably enslave non-Jews. Lucky for us, modern Christians do not believe that such passages are applicable to modern times.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 2:55 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-14-2011 11:42 AM ApostateAbe has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12971
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 120 of 189 (600409)
01-14-2011 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by ApostateAbe
01-14-2011 9:36 AM


Re: The true faith of Islam
Dr Adequate, perhaps, then, Islam is not a religion of peace ...

I did not, I believe, say that it was.

But, when you have passages like these:

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you ...

When you have passages like that, it seems that Muslims are pretty much like anyone else.

Really, they can kill those who wage war against them? What a shocking religion.

Then tell me which religion is the religion of peace.

... Buddhism?

Those passages mean that you get justification for the sort of endless exchanges of revenge you see in Palestine ...

You'd get that anywhere people thought they had a right to defend themselves and their homes. The Northern Irish and the Tamils managed something quite similar without the help of the Quran.

See? Ancient Judaism was a religion of peace! They much preferred to peaceably enslave non-Jews.

Which already makes them morally inferior to Muhammad, who did not in the first place seek war against the polytheists; nor enslave all the inhabitants of Mecca when he finally took it. And now read the rest of the passage ...

This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ApostateAbe, posted 01-14-2011 9:36 AM ApostateAbe has not yet responded

  
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