Politicizing the AZ massacre

You guys sound like a bunch of christian soccer moms complaining that heavy metal has "fostered an environment where these events are sadly predictable" anytime some idiot light himself on fire because they saw it in a video.It's predictable in the same way as someone hurting themselves because they saw it on TV is predictable. It's not really predictable, it's one of those things that just happens.It's not South Park's fault if you light a fart and set your house on fire because you saw it on TV. South Park hasn't "fostered an environment where these events are sadly predictable." And yet I can predict that some idiot will do something stupid because they saw it on TV.Politicians get shot, idiots light themselves on fire. These things just happen.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Prediction? Hardly.What did she predict, that she'd be shot in the face by a gunman in Arizona? No, she said putting crosshairs over the district could have consequences.I tell you what, if it's predictable, tell me where and when the next one will be...or are we gonna keep playing hindsight psychic?- Oni

Did this dude shoot because of the crosshairs? Was this dude motivated by Palin? Was he a Tea Party follower and/or was he inspired by their hate rhetoric?Truth is, there is no evidence to support any of that, and that is evidence needed to support the "she predicted it" theory.All you have is a guy who shot a group of people who some happen to be involved in politics. The correlation you guys are trying to draw is based purely on speculation.What would that be called in court, circumstantial evidence, Subbie?And it's the same correlation that people try to draw when South Park or heavy metal or a book is said to have inspired someone to do harm. It's weak.- Oni

I don't know, I think that is a weak argument too. I saw most of what has been reported on him and it doesn't sound too far off from how many kids are. I knew a lot of people in high school who could have been diagnosed the same as him, and none have killed anyone. How many cheerleaders and jocks would say that same thing about any goth kid? Or the loner kid who likes to be by himself and read?Should they really investigate these opinions? The crosshairs I agree with, but the professionals dropping the ball part not so much. Maybe they did, but from the evidence I've seen his behavior wasn't that insane to draw that much of a warning sign.- Oni

Really? Are you forgetting the hair-metal days where everyone wore spandex, tight shirts and the gayest hair imaginable? Remember Poison?! Whitesnake?!Surely this is worse than any affect right-wing rhetoric has...even if 10 Congress people were shot...the affects of hair-metal are worse.- Oni

Wud up dude.In the US he would be considered far-left or ultra-left. Remember "left-wing" here in the US is the common term for most center-left democrats. Although you are using it the right way because it was original a term coined for socialist or communist, others may interpret it wrong because here it became generalized.Just saying...- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Same thing in most cases...- Oni

Exactly like hippy chicks! To quote Don King, "Only in America" do the definitions become goofy.- Oni

No one should jump to such a conclusion. It could cause retaliatory violence; the same thing you guys are now insinuating the "targets" did.Which makes the whole call for less aggressive political rhetoric complete bullshit.Obama called for an "end to the sharply polarised debate that has consumed America," and yet these accusations toward Palin are doing just that, causing everyone to once again turn on each other. Ridiculous.- Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Without the media broadcasting the speculations about Palin, would people really have remembered a 5 second comment about consequences given 9 months ago by the congress woman? I didn't remember it at all. To be honest, I didn't know she had said it orignially, I heard about it through the media recently.The general public may have speculated that it was in some way instigated by Tea Party rhetoric, on that I can agree. But to specifically call out Palin and those "targets" on the map is something very few, if anyone, would have tried to correlate. If only because no one would have remembered. Yes but they don't blast it through the media that the husband or boyfriend may have done it unless evidence points to that.This media driven speculation on Palin is the very thing the Tea Party is being accused of doing. It's not helping matters at all, and it will continue to divide us.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

I can't help your inability to see it, I can only present the argument. In the case of Palin and the targets, and ONLY in the case of Palin and the targets, it is obviously relevant to prove that Loughner was motivated by it if everyone is claiming that he was. Obviously. Do you have evidence that Loughner was motivated by Palin, Angle, O'Donnell or Bachman? Umm, rap lyrics, many of them, represent true reality. I have no clue what you're talking about. Many claim rap to be the motivation behind a lot of the violence seen in the black community. Any evidence for that other than pure speculation?- Oni

Yeah, and you have no evidence to support that.CBSNews: source

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investigators examining Loughner's computer files and phone records have thus far found no evidence that he has a specific connection to any hate or fringe group.

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He never made any mention of democrat or republican government. Unless you have actual evidence maybe?

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Loughner's statement in a YouTube video that: "the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammer. I'm able to control every belief and religion by being the mind controller!"

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So you want her to apologize even if her language (as the evidence points to) had no direct effect?You know what, then I will apologize too, because sometimes on stage I use harsh words that may have lead crazy people to do crazy things - maybe even this case, who knows? I mean, since we don't give a fuck about evidence, who really knows? In fact, why don't the producers, directors, writers and even actors of every violent movie where a politician has been shot apologize since their actions may have lead to a crazy person doing a crazy thing, maybe even this case, who knows? I mean, since we don't give a fuck about evidence, who really knows?Maybe Percy should apologize for having this forum where harsh words could lead crazy people (like Mabus) to do crazy things.Obama's call for an end to the bullshit was enough. You literally have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Don't mistake mainstream hip hop for real rap. Go to a club in Bed-Stuy where there's freestyle rap going on and tell me those guys aren't living that life for real.Where did Tupac get his MBA at? Biggy? Big Pun? Easy E? Mc Wren? Snoop? Dre? Mos Def? Freeway? Ice T? Eric B? Ice Cube? Bushwick Bill? Scarface? ....realllly, dude, MBA's? What about when Ice T said: I got my black shirt on.
I got my black gloves on.
I got my ski mask on.
This shit's been too long.

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I got my twelve gauge sawed off.
I got my headlights turned off.
I'm 'bout to bust some shots off.
I'm 'bout to dust some cops off.

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Cop killer, better you than me.
Cop killer, fuck police brutality!
Cop killer, I know your family's grievin'
(fuck 'em)
Cop killer, but tonight we get even.

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I got my brain on hype.
Tonight'll be your night.
I got this long-assed knife,
and your neck looks just right.
My adrenaline's pumpin'.
I got my stereo bumpin'.
I'm 'bout to kill me somethin'
A pig stopped me for nuthin'!

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Cop killer, better you than me.
Cop killer, fuck police brutality!
Cop killer, I know your mama's grievin'
(fuck her)
Cop killer, but tonight we get even.White America freaked the fuck out! Claiming the lyrics inspired at least two cop killings and increased racial tension between cops and the black community, what the fuck was that? Wasn't that NOT taking rap as entertainment, but instead treating it as if it made real claims?

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source Dennis R. Martin (Former President, National Association of Chiefs of Police):

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"The misuse of the First Amendment is graphically illustrated in Time-Warner's attempt to insert into the mainstream culture the vile and dangerous lyrics of the Ice-T song entitled Cop Killer. The Body Count album containing Cop Killer was shipped throughout the United States in miniature body bags. Only days before distribution of the album was voluntarily suspended, Time-Warner flooded the record market with a half million copies. The Cop Killer song has been implicated in at least two shooting incidents and has inflamed racial tensions in cities across the country. Those who work closely with the families and friends of slain officers volunteering for the American Police Hall of Fame and Museum, are outraged by the message of Cop Killer. It is an affront to the officers144 in 1992 alonewho have been killed in the line of duty while upholding the laws of our society and protecting all its citizens."

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But according to you EVERYONE knows rap is entertainment. It was so fucked up that the song was pulled and never released.Ever heard of rapper Paris? A real militant black dude (Nation of Islam) - this one actually has a bachelor's degree. His song Bush Killa, also censored because, you guessed it, it was about assassinating Bush Sr. It was thought the lyrics would actually inspire someone to do it.Just entertainment, really? Do you understand that when Ice T says "Fuck the police, for your freedom. Fuck the police, don't be a pussy. Fuck the police, have some muthafuckkin' courage. Die, die, die pig, die!" black Americans believe him? You see, they are stupid and don't know any better. They'll just go out and kill cops because of the lyrics! Don't believe me, that's what the President of the Police Cheif's thinks. Yes, but I'm asking for the link between "practicing conservative voices that lead Loughner to have paranoid ides about politics." Because this piece of evidence that you're claiming exists has elluded law enforcement who have checked his computer files and phone records. Source

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investigators examining Loughner's computer files and phone records have thus far found no evidence that he has a specific connection to any hate or fringe group.

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And? Right, he killed a congress woman. And now for your evidence that conservative voices lead him to paranoid ideas about politics. Waiting. Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, George Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm, Ayn Rand's We The Living ...none of that would fit the bill.Unless...wait...are you saying that communism is actually true conservatism?- Oni

Not at all, and I answered you in that other thread. My point in the other thread has nothing to do with people being influenced by words. Like I said in that thread, no one would have to be influenced to commit violence for Islam to still be a religion that promotes violence.You see, promoting violence is saying the words. But I make no mention of anyone reacting to or being influenced by those words. If I did, provide the quote.Can you understand that or is this gonna drag out like the embassy crap? No, you just happen to post a shit load more than anyone else, and you happen to be wrong about politics a shit load. Plus your liberal arrogance really pisses me off. You drink the same Kool-Aid as those on the right, poured from a different cup, and that makes you think you're right.That, and I just don't like you - at least your forum persona. No hard feelings I hope. I had to go back to your post to see how you worded it. You said:

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Jared Loughner believed that the Democratic government was out to control everybody's attitudes, perceptions, and actions. Don't you think that repeated claims by top political leaders of the conservative mainstream, including former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin, that Democratic liberals including the President want to control everybody's attitudes, perceptions, and actions might have contributed to that view?

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You used democratic liberal so I figured you meant democrats. Evidence? Geez, how white are you? You know Hip Hop incorporates rap but it's not rap, right? Just as Hip Hop incorporates DJ'ing and scratching but Hip Hop isn't DJ'ing and scratching.Hip Hop artist is synonymous with rapper, but it's not the same thing. Since I've been there and seen it myself, I don't have to be naive as you say and take anyone's word for it. And the fun part is, I'm moving not far from there in March to Bushwick. So I'll take a pic for you. Oh that white...It's Ice T not Tupac! Ehh, ok, I'll give you that. Or that it sets up an environment with increased racial tension where cop killing becomes inevitable. You are now claiming that the current poltical rhetoric does the same thing. Neither claim is supported by evidence. You're right, I did ask for that. I hadn't read the journal yet.But ok, do you now have evidence that he was influenced by right-wing rhetoric as you continue to claim? I haven't said he didn't, but don't pretend to know what influenced him. Because no one currently knows that. I never said it was. When you made the claim I simply asked for the evidence, since I hadn't read or known about the the journal yet. That's why I asked for the evidence, because maybe I missed something, which I did.When I answered you in this last post I had read the journal and completely forgot that I even asked for it. But that is a minor point, which I will concede on. She was targeted.Now, to the point that right-wing rhetoric was directly or indirectly responsible, there still needs to be physical evidence provided. Oh calm the fuck down, I said "kill" instead of "shot," don't be such a drama queen. I've been saying shot the whole thread.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Me: "We should go out and beat the shit out of everyone we talk to that disagrees with our opinions."My friends: "No thanks. Geez, Oni likes to promote violence as a resolution to disagreements. I'm not going to do it, but he sure likes to promote it."I'm just presenting an idea for their approval or disapproval. No one has to be influenced by me for me to continue to present this idea. Still acting like a cunty drama queen? You could have just said, as we all do in this forum: "Did you mean, shot instead of kill?"But instead you jumped to claiming I had no idea what I was talking about, as though I haven't seen any news on this. It was a pathetic attempt at trying to discredit me. And for that, you remain a cunty drama queen. Wtf are you talking about? It's a democatic government whether there is a liberal or a conservative at the helm.He never mentions liberal government, democrats, republicans or conservative, that is the point. He said "government" which he's had an issue with for a long time, since before Obama. So it has nothing to do with anything new or the new president. He was following the congress woman since 2007. No Palin then.What you are talking about is just violence in politics, which has always existed. No. More people pay attention to entertainers than politics. More deaths, death threats, violence, stalking, kidnappings, have occured to people in entertainment than in politics. (ABE: US politics)Biggy, killed by west coast rap supporters who believed the problems between west coast and east coast rappers was real.Tupac, killed by east coast rap supporters who thought the problems were real.50 cent, shot 9 times for the same reasons.La Rock, same thing.Jam Master J, same thing.Proof, same thing.VL Mike, same thing.Freaky Tah, same thing.And these are just a few rappers off the top of my head that are now dead (except for 50 cent) because people that listen to rap thought the west coast/east coast beef was real. It makes no sense because YOU are using the same words to describe both things. It's a nice tactic, but it doesn't work when we have a letter to or from (I forget) the congress woman way the fuck back in 2007, and copies of Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. Plus, his computer files and phone records don't tie him to any one specific group.You are trying to connect it to Palin and her rhetoric (or that of her ilk) when the evidence is just not there. Which I did on the matter of him targeting her. But since it was way back in 2007, there is no evidence for the current political rhetoric to have been the motivating factor. Him shooting her had been a long time coming, sadly.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Because things that promote violence, like movies and TV shows, don't actually lead to violence. Lets change the product to something you are probably more familiar with.Can you market a penis growth pill even though it doesn't actually make your penis grow? Yes, of course you can. Yeah, no shit! The idea to go beat someone up IS an idea that woulod contribute to violence. Wow! But does it change the fact that I still presented the idea even if no one goes with me to beat someone up? No I am not. There most certainly is speech that can cause people to act violently. Hitler's speeches are a good example. But there is proof of that.Palin's speech and that of the right-wing could very well have lead to Loughner shooting the congress woman, but according to law enforcement who have looked into it, they have concluded that at this point there is no link.I'll take the word of those physically investigating the crime before I accept your conclusion. I would have, but you didn't give me a chance. You jumped down my throat suggesting I had no knowledge of what was going on. After that do you really think I'm gonna be polite and say sorry? After you acted like a bitch over one misplaced word? I would have said sorry had you come correct. But you didn't.Next time be nice. Lets try this again because you are obviously having trouble comprehending the words you quoted.Our government remains democratic whether there is a liberal or conservative at the helm. As in, it is a democracy whether there is a liberal or conservative at the helm. No, all that you have written could very well be true and it would still have no relevance tn this particular case. In this particular case, according to law enforcement that is investgating it, there is currently no connection. That is just a fact. You can suggest otherwise, but it would just be speculation.Untill you have hard evidence you have nothing. Yeah, I get that this is your opinion, but it remains just that, your opinion. There is no hard evidence to support the assertion that Palin's hate speech, the "targets" and right-wing rhetoric indirectly caused this. And that's not my opinion (I remain unconvinced), this is the opinion of law enforcement that is investigating the case.What we are discussing is whether Palin and specifically the right-wing rhetoric (not just an overall hostile political environment - which would still be unevidenced) was responsible. And there just isn't any hard evidence. It could have been Mein Kampf, or the Communist Manifesto just the same. Or voices in his head. Or the neighbors dog like the Son of Sam guy. Who knows?I'm not saying what you're suggesting isn't quite possibly the reason, and I actually agree with some of your conclusions, but these are just opinions. I'm saying there is no hard evidence, especially none to where the news media had to jump on that story and run with it causing the same environment that you/many have accused the right-wing of doing.That's just irresponsible wouldn't you agree?- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.