Movie: "God on Trial"

Proof positive that the Jew is as much in need of New Testament illumination as the next guy."There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile" Romans 2:9Although well-dramatised, the piece is really only a compendium of the kind of atheistic argumentation you see wheeled out all the time. There isn't even the benefit of seeing the standard defences given the same treatment (the defence sits on it hands throughout)There certainly isn't anything new:- "what about the innocent children (and idiots)- how can God slay all those 'innocent' people- God is behind whoever claims he is their's- slew/smite/destroy/wipe-out/kill - as if there's anything particularly problematic about God doing that.- last but not least: man's justice is better than Gods. Man has the big picture in mind - not God.

I think the underlying point was that all will reap the reward of sin: both Jew and Gentile. The Prosecution seemed to have difficulty with this.- I didn't find it at all grating. But when faced with that kind of one-sided approach, the neutral observer can get to wondering why the counter isn't being aired. Is it that the prosecution is afraid to do so? The film isn't going to do anything much for those who stand on one or other side.The objections raised are pretty much standard issue and have pretty much standard issue responses. You might not, for instance, find it satisfactory that a creator/owner can lay down the moral law for you to obey - but I've never heard a satisfactory answer informing me why it is I should be able to do as I please - irrespective of what a creator/owner says.- I wasn't labouring under the notion of an omni-benevolent God. Since God is revealed in the Bible as furious wrath against sin (amongst other things) I'm at a loss as to why his expressing that wrath should be so problematic for some.It seems to me that you can't have love without hate. I mean, how can you love children without hating the acts of a paedophile?- Have you a problem with God punishing your sin? On what basis?Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

So, what's the problem with God slaying those who sin (I'd appreciate it if you could avoid including references to 'babies & idiots' in your answer )- Where does a God who is furious wrath against sin fit into this picture of a benevolent and omnipotent God? That's the God I have faith in.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

It's the God of the Old Testament actually - not that that seems to matter to the authors of the piece. As my journalist mate is wont to say "never let the facts get in the way of a good story!".- Cold comfort if faced with a God who doesn't take your having tried your best into consideration in pronouncing Judgement.Edited by iano, : the author isn't an atheist it would appear - he's a "committed Catholic".

He does offer a way out.He might not be teaching you a lesson - he might have placed you here to find out whether you'll avail of the way out. What's unfair about punishment?

If surrendering and trusting then you wouldn't end up in his courtroom for your trying to matter.Once having trusted, there is no harm in trying your best for other (non-self righteous) motivations.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I take it that you've no problem with the principle?- In the general sense the crime would be "doing wrong" - with God having created man to be a) in a position to choose whether to or not and b) agree (in his heart) that 'doing wrong' attracts a negative wage.Created man wouldn't have a say in how the 'game' is set up - he only has a say in which way he'll play it.-When it comes to these prisoners, it need not be God's wrath alone that is at play (assuming that God's wrath is involved at all). Suffering is a consequence of sin (even anothers sin) but is also one of the levers used to bring men to their knees before God. Such is the drumbeat repetition in the Old Testament model of the Jews before their God.

The Jewish authors of the NT are anti-semites? Can this be (on a technical level)?- You omit the other option: obey his ways and enjoy his blessing - which includes a life after death in which the desire to sin is absent. Your objection needs to take account of the whole - else it suffers as the film suffers.- This doesn't stand toe-to-toe with the argument. Disbelief isn't an answer to the argument.- As I said earlier: wrath and goodness are compatible. Have you an answer to that?- Again I point you to the NT. If true, then the Jews are no worshippers of God. They are followers of a religion which eschews God in favour of an idol. Your argument needs to take account of such basics.Suffering can be used for punishment. It can be used to discipline. It can be used to halt the advance of sin. It can be used as a tool to bring the rebellious lost to their knees. Your uni-dimensional view doesn't even begin to tackle this variation.- Asking a better question is one way of avoiding an answer. Love necessitaties hate. Discuss.- Disbelief doesn't rebut an argument. Take a look back at your post GM. It's virtually all huff and puff.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Sorry for taking up your time - I did a sloppy edit which didn't reflect the position of the author himself.Insofar as the piece is commandeered as a signed/sealed/delivered judgement of God-of-the-Bible, the piece is both one-sided and somewhat incomplete, the God in question being the God of the Old Testament.- Again, I was dealing what the snippet as it appears to have been commandeered. No doubt I was shooting somewhat prematurely from the hip though.Must track it down myself too though, it looks like a rivetting piece.

Eternal separation from God (and that being experienced as torment) strikes me as the overarching condition of the finally lost. That the decision to occupy that state is made by a person in the temporal realm isn't ethically problematic.- Death merely shifts a person from temporary stage to final destination. It happens all of us. I'd be less concerned about the reason why God removes a person at the time he does and more about the final destination that is theirs on removal from this life.I wouldn't get too hung up on the temporal/eternal division- There's one other: holiness. All that is sinful offends it and attracts a reaction from it.- All good/right/holy means is "in line with God's will". Defined so, it isn't might which makes God right, but definition. You would have a different definition no doubt - which isn't very helpful. It's probably better to examine things and find where you and he disagree and why that might be.He commands people to be put to death as you say. But since no one dies without his say so that's hardly the biggest problem. Some get a long period on the stage, others a shorter period. So what - if our life here isn't the Big Picture?There is no such thing as a good man. None are without sin. Besides, there are positive aspects to be had from suffering - where would be be without a tootache to tell us that something is amiss.God commanding rape is a reach. Something laid onto the text, not extracted from it.- Emotive words those. But can you substantiate them with some firm thinking?For example: what obligation would God have ( him being the sustainer of everything) to support the life of a man for longer than He desires to do so? For longer than it takes to serve the purpose He gave the life for?Be careful not to let some self-decided upon purpose usurp the one he has for giving you life. That wouldn't count as firm thinking.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Turning your back on the religion of your birth doesn't make you an anti-semite. Could you be a little bit more precise - perhaps supplying some text to back up your position?- In the sense that God didn't create us to operate independently from him I'd have to agree with you (that we are "enslaved"). However, the argument is that we are 'we' because he breathed himself into us. Made in his image and all that. If it weren't for that there would be no "we" to speak of. We'd be down all that makes us people.Could you deal with that omission?- I'd be careful what I wish for if I were you. If desiring his wrath being expressed at the moment it is deserved then Poof! - there goes Granny Magda (and iano).Would you still like God to act at the moment of evildoing?- You're discussing with a Christian. An initial Christian response to "God didn't help his worshippers" is that they are not necessarily worshippers. It's a narrow point.Not that God necessarily prevents bad things happening to his worshippers. Or that his worshippers can't loose faith and point an angry finger at God.Help comes from understanding more of what God's overarching goal is wrt both the individual and the world at large. It's not a sure fire salve for the troubles of this world. But the potential for solace in the face of the most tortuous of circumstances is there.- You would agree that suffering and strife focus' attention in a way that nothing else can do? It's certainly the way of this world - we desist from a desirable path when it pains us too much to continue on it. And only then.- Suggestions? It would help if you could frame the problem first.- What's in a claim? *rolleyes*If his purposes are better served by permitting suffering then what's the issue. Although there are no doubt atheists in foxholes the principle stands: people will turn to God when there is no other place left to turn to.It can't be helped, such is the depth of the desire for independence from God.- This boils down to a question of degree. As love > infinity so will hate (and the reaction to that which insults love). Similarily, depending on how one see's the crime, so to will one's sense of punishment be informed. There is no reason to suppose all should stop at your weighing up of things.- Let's not lose our context: God in the OT judging. And men finding that judgment unjust. Doesn't this depend on a particular view of innocence? That adultery (for example) shouldn't attract judgment.- The complexity of the situation with "children and idiots" requires demonstration that the 'easier' issues be dealt with first. If that's not possible (as it appears not to be) then there is no point in adding that complexity.The worth of my fellow human beings is best represented in the sacrifice undertaken by this self-same God on their behalf. Neither you nor that snippet of film (insofar as it is commandeered to condemn the biblical God) make any mention of that. Edited by iano, : No reason given.

What would prevent you killing them except his restraining your desire to sin?So yes, it is him killing - by doing nothing in the face of your will expressing itself. No get out of jail card there I'm afraid.

I'd see eternal separation from God as the framework on which eternal torment is built. For example:When we do another wrong we can feel a sense of guilt about that wrongdoing - but the pain involved in that diminishes over time. The technical reason for this we might call "suppression of truth". In other words, without our surpressing our knowledge of wrongdoing, without our rationalising our wrongdoing away ("they deserved what they got" or "they'll get over it") we would continue to feel the pain associated with guilt.A time will come when all our wrongdoing will be reexposed to the light. It will rise to the surface again in all its diabolical glory and we will feel the full horror of our wrongdoing. Connected to God there is forgiveness for that wrongdoing, our guilt is taken away and laid on another. Without God we must bear the weight of that ourselves.Eternal separation from God - a place to bear the horror of your wrongdoing yourself. Without the ability to suppress. Without the ability to escape. Torment (of own manufacture).- The full consequences of a choice don't need to be known in order to make a valid choice. Indeed, no one can know the full consequences of their choices before making them.The issue isn't so much the consequence that follow, it's whether you desire righteousness or not. That's the choice that you're faced with in effect.

Not quite.Ask Jesus to forgive you for all your wrongdoing right now.Done?Are you forgiven? In all likelyhood not.

It's sin that enables them. God's restraint may prevent. That's the theology you need to deal with - not one of your own imagining Edited by iano, : No reason given.