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Author Topic:   What is design? Can we not find evidence of design on earth or in the universe?
onifre
Member (Idle past 509 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 136 of 185 (486690)
10-23-2008 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Agobot
10-23-2008 12:31 PM


Re: Atheism
Hi Abogot,

BTW nonsense is the belief in miracles as well as the belief that your interpretation of the current scientific level of knowledge states that there is no god.

I think you are using the term God here a bit losely.

God is defined only through religion. From Abrahamic back to mythology gods have an identity. Those identities are described in scriptures/religious texts. These are the types of gods that (a)theist disbelieve in and our current level of scientific knowledge can disprove those stories (from Zues and Apollo, to the 7 days of creation and the Flood), I believe you have agree with that.

Now, your discription of God is not likely to follow any religions discription of God, so you have just adopted the term God for lack of a better word. Just as Einstein did.

Atheist have nothing to do with your type of belief, we simply reject theological gods.

Can there exist a force that sets up the laws, who knows. You seem to think so, fine. That does not make you a theist though. Nor does it make our rejection of your concept an atheistic disbelief because you are using science, and the understanding of the laws of physics, to derive your answer, so this kinda becomes a scientific discussion and NOT theological.

We can then move on to disproving, or you proving, your theory using empirical data to describe the conditions of the universe and how the laws of physics apply to it, making neither of us theistic OR (a)theistic.

Edited by onifre, : spelling


"All great truths begin as blasphemies"

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Agobot, posted 10-23-2008 12:31 PM Agobot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Agobot, posted 10-23-2008 8:14 PM onifre has responded

    
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 137 of 185 (486708)
10-23-2008 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by onifre
10-23-2008 4:50 PM


Re: Atheism
Hi onifre,

I tend to agree with you, it seems atheism was set up primarily to counter religious dogma of the scripture, which is not prevalent in this new cosmic religion Einstein talked about.
BTW, if we survive for long enough we are destined to become semi-gods, it's inevitable. However, it's disgusting to see people claim science tells them there is no creator/god when just 140 years ago their relatives had no electricity and were riding horses and carts. Science this, science that... and here comes the grand conclusion - there is no creator and it's supposedly backed up by science. People seem to think they are already gods, masters of their own fate... if only they knew how very little depends on them in this uncontrolable infinite chain of events that they call reality and life. It's plain stupid to look around and declare - "there is no creator, i don't find evidence".
Anyway, one day the border between what we consider god and what we'll have become will be minimal(if we survive that long). We are destined to rise to a god-like immortal status, if we cannot do that, we don't belong here and will perish like 99% of the other creatures that roamed the earth. The intellect that we have that matches closely the inherent intellect behind the structure and workings of the universe makes me believe our way of reasoning is right. If we can understand the universe, we will be the new gods. Who knows, maybe one day we'll get to meet and understand that elusive force that drives everything in such harmony for almost 14 billion years.
Just give it enough time and see the energy of the singularity turn to god. What a magnificient plan if this is all it's about.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein

"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by onifre, posted 10-23-2008 4:50 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by onifre, posted 10-24-2008 5:01 PM Agobot has responded

    
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 138 of 185 (486713)
10-23-2008 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by 1.61803
10-23-2008 3:46 PM


Re: Atheism
1.61803 writes:

Virtual particles appearing and the disappearing from a vaccum constitute "something from nothing." There is nothing, and then something. Is it created? Or does it happen because empty space is not really empty after all?

yes, there is no true vacuum but what does it have to do with the all-encompassing all-compelling 2+2=4?

2+2=5 is nonsense, and yet theist expect others to believe that 1+1+1=1 and not the sum of 3. They call this The Trinity. Show me a universe where 1+1+1=1 and I will show you a unverse where 2+2=5.

Scripture is BS but if that 1+1+1=1 is Jesus becoming one with God, think about the energy of the singularity. It has become 20 billion people so far, of which 6.65bln. are alive. It can become anything and then it's still one. Just give it time and it may one day become god.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein

"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by 1.61803, posted 10-23-2008 3:46 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 10:18 AM Agobot has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2719
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 139 of 185 (486751)
10-24-2008 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Agobot
10-23-2008 8:50 PM


Re: Atheism
Hello.
Agobot writes:
quote:
yes, there is no true vacuum but what does it have to do with the all-encompassing all-compelling 2+2=4?
Nothing. Just as 2+2=4 has nothing to do with created laws of the universe. It is humanity that assigns significance, and lables how the universe manifest reality. If the Earth were inhabited by cockroaches or bacteria as the most intelligent creatures the concept of 2+2=4 would still apply and yet most likely cockroaches would not be doing addition. The physical laws of the universe are what they are because if it where any other way then that would be the status quo. In other words, reality exist because 'it' does. Not because it must. Existance is the status quo because it is. And if it where not, then there would be nothing to comptemplate the 'why' we are here. Energy has for whatever reason, or no reason has become sentient in the form of human conciousness.
Agobot writes:
quote:
Scripture is BS but if that 1+1+1=1 is Jesus becoming one with God, think about the energy of the singularity. It has become 20 billion people so far, of which 6.65bln. are alive. It can become anything and then it's still one. Just give it time and it may one day become god.
Well I do not agree that scripture is BS. It is actually does have some good knowlege and messages contained within it. Even if not factual still contains some truth.
As far as Jesus becoming one with God is concerned was a matter hotly debated during the council of Nice. The cardinals finally concluded that Jesus is one with the Father and same substance. This I suspect was to quell the notion of 3 separate entitys which smacked of Paganism to the Church. The Big Bang giving rise to the cosmos and eventually humans is a mystery. Even if someday humanity gleens the answer of how it happened the question of why will always persist. The harden atheist will be content to say there is no why. The agnostic will say there may be a why, and the faithful will say God is the why. It is only when people claim to have the one and only answer does the argument commence in my opinion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Agobot, posted 10-23-2008 8:50 PM Agobot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 11:04 AM 1.61803 has responded
 Message 141 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 12:27 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 140 of 185 (486758)
10-24-2008 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by 1.61803
10-24-2008 10:18 AM


Re: Atheism
1.61803 writes:

Nothing. Just as 2+2=4 has nothing to do with created laws of the universe. It is humanity that assigns significance, and lables how the universe manifest reality. If the Earth were inhabited by cockroaches or bacteria as the most intelligent creatures the concept of 2+2=4 would still apply and yet most likely cockroaches would not be doing addition. The physical laws of the universe are what they are because if it where any other way then that would be the status quo.

This is ultimately wrong. Our intelligence is a reflection of the inherent intelligence of the universe. We don't invent intelligence, we discover it. Like Faraday discovered that moving a magnet over a metal wire induces electrons in the wire, so is every other discovery mankind has ever made. I can't stress it enough, we don't invent, we DISCOVER that certain things are possible, that they had existed from the beginning of the universe(like electricity that mankind hadn't previously been aware of). All we are doing is discover those possibilities and "features" of matter. Everything we "invent" is a characteristic of the properties of the universe, that allow it to be what it is - atomic power/bomb, electromagnetic waves transmission(TV, Radio, etc.), telescopes, microscopes, etc...
All these were possible because of the inherent characteristic of matter, they are what they are whether we are here or not, but they are our OUR TRUE LIMIT of intelligence and development. This is the only thing that might hinder us from becoming gods, the inherent intelligence of the universe. If we reach a level where no new discoveries are possible although we've understood the universe, and we are still not close to being able to transcend our existence into a new timeless immaterial form, then that will be the limit. We aill not become gods.

1.61803 writes:

In other words, reality exist because 'it' does. Not because it must. Existance is the status quo because it is. And if it where not, then there would be nothing to comptemplate the 'why' we are here. Energy has for whatever reason, or no reason has become sentient in the form of human conciousness.

This doesn't even begin to make sense. What is this meaningless statement supposed to mean - "reality exist because 'it' does". A 3-grader might fall for that, but i don't see anyone that young here.
Do you have ANY REMOTE idea what kind of intelligence is needed to make something like the universe from + and -? The intelligence necessary is not mind-boggling, it's completely and totally earth-shattering. We are still cavemen looking to piece together 1/1000th of a percent of the inherent intelligence behind the workings of the universe and the emergence of life. You have absolutely no idea what kind of intelligence we are dealing with. It's like jellyfish to the intelligence of Stephen Hawking, where our intelligence is the intelligence of the jellyfish and Stephen Hawking is the intelligence that created the universe through physical laws and energy.

1.61803 writes:

Scripture is BS but if that 1+1+1=1 is Jesus becoming one with God, think about the energy of the singularity. It has become 20 billion people so far, of which 6.65bln. are alive. It can become anything and then it's still one. Just give it time and it may one day become god.

1.61803 writes:

Well I do not agree that scripture is BS. It is actually does have some good knowlege and messages contained within it. Even if not factual still contains some truth.
As far as Jesus becoming one with God is concerned was a matter hotly debated during the council of Nice. The cardinals finally concluded that Jesus is one with the Father and same substance. This I suspect was to quell the notion of 3 separate entitys which smacked of Paganism to the Church. The Big Bang giving rise to the cosmos and eventually humans is a mystery. Even if someday humanity gleens the answer of how it happened the question of why will always persist. The harden atheist will be content to say there is no why. The agnostic will say there may be a why, and the faithful will say God is the why. It is only when people claim to have the one and only answer does the argument commence in my opinion

When and if one day you manage to grasp what kind of intelligence, what kind of laws(many thousands) stand behind the billions of years of existense of the universe, you might start to make sense.

Let me give you hand - the whole universe is based on a simple law. It states that opposite charges attract and like charges repel. There is no answer why this law states what it does, but this law is all-universe encompassing and all universe- compelling and it makes the existence of the universe and life possible. This is the Universe, this what it's based on. This what makes possible your existence, your love toward your wife, your everything - even your death. The law that opposite charges attract and like charges repel is what you call universe, world, existence, emotions, love, joy, etc. absolutely anything and everything you will ever see or feel through what you call life. This is the universe --> it's + and -. It takes incredible amount of intelligence to create laws that work(unlike us that we're just discovering them), but rest assured, one day it will be us who will be creating the laws.

I am not writing this for you especially, but to the general public out there. I have no illusions that your religious belief in atheism can be destroyed by logic or reason.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein

"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 10:18 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 1:35 PM Agobot has responded
 Message 145 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 1:55 PM Agobot has not yet responded

    
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 141 of 185 (486767)
10-24-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by 1.61803
10-24-2008 10:18 AM


Re: Atheism
If the idea of us becoming god seems to radical for you, think about what we were 2 billion years ago(a bacteria), then think what we were 500 000 years ago(a dumb ape climbing trees), then look what we are now - sending robots to Mars. It's radical, right? But it's a fact. It's inevitable - follow the great path of humanity for the last 2 billion years and you'll see that it's inevitable - we are heading to becoming Gods. Let's hope our inherent human stupidity does not stumble us along the way.


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein

"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 10:18 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 142 of 185 (486771)
10-24-2008 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Agobot
10-22-2008 7:23 PM


Re: A sampling of their Answers
Your argument is an argument from incredulity. Nothing more.

And your assessment of the probability of this universe existing is nothing more than crazed speculation.

Maybe it was inevitable rather than improbable.
On what basis can you really claim to know otherwise?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Agobot, posted 10-22-2008 7:23 PM Agobot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 1:49 PM Straggler has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2719
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 143 of 185 (486773)
10-24-2008 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Agobot
10-24-2008 11:04 AM


Re: Atheism
Agobot:
quote:
This is ultimately wrong. Our intelligence is a reflection of the inherent intelligence of the universe.

Wat? The inherent intelligence of the universe? So the universe is intelligent because we are? And the universe would be intelligent regardless of humanity exist or not because the universe has intelligent laws I suppose? Bahahhhaahawwahha!!

quote:
We don't invent intelligence, we discover it.

Some never do.

The universe is only intelligent because that is a quality you assigned it and nothing more.

Agobot:

quote:
Like Faraday discovered that moving a magnet over a metal wire induces electrons in the wire, so is every other discovery mankind has ever made. I can't stress it enough, we don't invent, we DISCOVER that certain things are possible, that they had existed from the beginning of the universe(like electricity that mankind hadn't previously been aware of). All we are doing is discovering those possibilities and "features" of matter.
I agree about the scientific discovery...but disagree it is anything other than human intelligence that is responsible for the discovery and knowlege gained. A snowflake is a amazing crystaline structure. But it is not intelligent.
quote:
All these were possible because of the inherent characteristic of matter, they are what they are whether we are here or not, but they are our OUR TRUE LIMIT of intelligence and development. This is the only thing that might hinder us from becoming gods, the inherent intelligence of the universe. If we reach a level where no new discoveries are possible although we've understood the universe, and we are still not close to being able to transcend our existence into a new timeless immaterial form, then that will be the limit. We aill not become gods

All these things are possible because of the intelligence of humanity to manipulate matter to suit his needs. From shard of flint to a fine clovis point. From sand to glass, it is mans intelligence that discovers the principals and properties of matter in order to use them for his purpose.

quote:
This is the only thing that might hinder us from becoming gods, the inherent intelligence of the universe.
Wat?
:eek:

Edited by 1.61803, : redundant


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 11:04 AM Agobot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 2:22 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 144 of 185 (486777)
10-24-2008 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Straggler
10-24-2008 1:07 PM


Re: A sampling of their Answers
Yes, I am incredulous towards coherent physical laws that could construct a universe forming for no reason.

Straggler writes:

And your assessment of the probability of this universe existing is nothing more than crazed speculation.

Yes, it is. The chance for the universe to form by chance with thousands of physical laws forming also by chance, and all this mess to become a universe that could exists for 13 700 000 000 years and harbour life for 4 000 000 000 years that will become the consciousness and eyes of the universe is 1:10^infinity.

Straggler writes:

Maybe it was inevitable rather than improbable.
On what basis can you really claim to know otherwise?

What would make it inevitable? The physical laws + the energy? I totally agree, under such conditions a universe that could support intelligent life is inevitable. Now where did those laws come from? Why do opposite electrical charges attract and like charges repel? So that the universe could exist? I don't see any other way to answer that question, so it would be a Yes.


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein

"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2008 1:07 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2008 5:54 PM Agobot has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2719
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 145 of 185 (486778)
10-24-2008 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Agobot
10-24-2008 11:04 AM


Re: Atheism
1.61803 writes:
quote:
Scripture is BS but if that 1+1+1=1 is Jesus becoming one with God, think about the energy of the singularity. It has become 20 billion people so far, of which 6.65bln. are alive. It can become anything and then it's still one. Just give it time and it may one day become god.

The above quote attributed to me is not my quote but a statement from Agobot.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 11:04 AM Agobot has not yet responded

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 146 of 185 (486780)
10-24-2008 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by 1.61803
10-24-2008 1:35 PM


Re: Atheism
Agobot writes:

This is ultimately wrong. Our intelligence is a reflection of the inherent intelligence of the universe.

Wat? The inherent intelligence of the universe? So the universe is intelligent because we are? And the universe would be intelligent regardless of humanity exist or not because the universe has intelligent laws I suppose? Bahahhhaahawwahha!!

Yes, the laws of the universe is what formed a guy like you who makes stupid statements. You think you made yourself from nothing? Think again. You are a product of matter/energy BY THOSE SAME LAWS of the universe that reflect high levels of intelligence. Intelligence you'll never comprehend. Typical atheist arrogant bullshit. You are simply an extremely sophisticated cloud of positively and negatively charged energy, that asserts it came into being by chance. And i get the feeling that, in your case, you might be right.

Agobot writes:

We don't invent intelligence, we discover it.

Some never do.

I am sure you are talking about yourself.

Agobot writes:

Like Faraday discovered that moving a magnet over a metal wire induces electrons in the wire, so is every other discovery mankind has ever made. I can't stress it enough, we don't invent, we DISCOVER that certain things are possible, that they had existed from the beginning of the universe(like electricity that mankind hadn't previously been aware of). All we are doing is discovering those possibilities and "features" of matter.

I agree about the scientific discovery...but disagree it is anything other than human intelligence that is responsible for the discovery and knowlege gained. A snowflake is a amazing crystaline structure. But it is not intelligent.

Human intelligence would not be possible if there were no intelligently made physical laws that govern the universe to allow us to understand our realm of existence. We still don't understand it, it's only the layman that has understood it and declared that there is no creator.

Agobot writes:

All these were possible because of the inherent characteristic of matter, they are what they are whether we are here or not, but they are our OUR TRUE LIMIT of intelligence and development. This is the only thing that might hinder us from becoming gods, the inherent intelligence of the universe. If we reach a level where no new discoveries are possible although we've understood the universe, and we are still not close to being able to transcend our existence into a new timeless immaterial form, then that will be the limit. We will not become gods

All these things are possible because of the intelligence of humanity to manipulate matter to suit his needs. From shard of flint to a fine clovis point. From sand to glass, it is mans intelligence that discovers the principals and properties of matter in order to use them for his purpose.

We discover what is already there in terms of inherent properties laid down by physical laws that have NO origin, and what is already there is perplexing to anyone but a stubborn atheist who thinks he knows all the answers to conclude there is no god/creator. Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are still completely in the dark ages when it comes to our existence, the forming of life, the forming of the universe, energy turning to matter and consciousness, etc. But if you know all these answers, good for you. HAHA

Agobot writes:

All these discoveries were possible because of the inherent characteristic of matter, they are what they are whether we are here or not, but they are our OUR TRUE LIMIT of intelligence and development. This is the only thing that might hinder us from becoming gods, the inherent intelligence of the universe. If we reach a level where no new discoveries are possible although we've understood the universe, and we are still not close to being able to transcend our existence into a new timeless immaterial form, then that will be the limit. We will not become gods.

Wat?

I didn't expect you to understand this bit.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein

"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 1:35 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 3:16 PM Agobot has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2719
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 147 of 185 (486785)
10-24-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Agobot
10-24-2008 2:22 PM


Re: Atheism
Hi Agobot!
Agobot writes:
quote:
Yes, the laws of the universe is what formed a guy like you who makes stupid statements. You think you made yourself from nothing?

No I did not make myself. I am a product of the same stuff that composes the periodic table of elements.

quote:
Think again. You are a product of matter/energy BY THOSE SAME LAWS of the universe that reflect high levels of intelligence.

Umm your doing it again, assigning intelligence to the universe.
Agobot writes:

quote:
Intelligence you'll never comprehend.

I only comprehend the necessity you have to attribute "intelligence" to the universe in order to assert there is a intelligent law maker that created it. This is fine to believe, but does not mean it is so.
Things may just simply be the way they are just because. I like the third grader comparison you made. Children most often cut through alot of the stupidity some adults tend to come up with.

Agobot writes:

quote:
Typical atheist arrogant bullshit.

:rolleyes:

Agobot writes:

quote:
You are simply an extremely sophisticated cloud of positively and negatively charged energy, that asserts it came into being by chance. And i get the feeling that, in your case, you might be right.
Hmmm extremely sophisticated, I like that. Coming into existance by chance. Oh come now you know that is not so, I was planned by the creator that eventually the atoms that compose me would be used to let me type these words. BahHhwahhwwwaahhhaa!!!

Agobot asserts:

quote:
Human intelligence would not be possible if there were no intelligently made physical laws that govern the universe to allow us to understand our realm of existence.

And you know this to be true because?...because it just has to be that way. because? Because that is how it is. It must be because of the intelligence of the Universe that uses intelligent laws. Oh ok.
I am convinced now. Thanks for clearing that up.

If you want to believe the Universe is intelligent because it uses intelligent laws that were created by a Intelligent being. And...that humanity may someday obtain God status, except that the limiting factor will be the universe itself. More power to you. I for one do not. This does not make me a atheist. It simply makes me a doubter kooky ideas.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 2:22 PM Agobot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 4:58 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 148 of 185 (486794)
10-24-2008 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by 1.61803
10-24-2008 3:16 PM


Re: Atheism
Agobot writes:

Yes, the laws of the universe is what formed a guy like you who makes stupid statements. You think you made yourself from nothing?

No I did not make myself. I am a product of the same stuff that composes the periodic table of elements.

But you are fighting successfully the second law of thermodynamics. Doesn't it surprise you? There is much much more to you than a combination of atoms. You are the consciouness and eyes of the universe, you are the representation and manifestation of the laws of physics that allowed your emergence and that constructed the universe from energy. NOTHING is as simple as it seems to the casual onlooker.

Agobot writes:

Think again. You are a product of matter/energy BY THOSE SAME LAWS of the universe that reflect high levels of intelligence.

Umm your doing it again, assigning intelligence to the universe.

Let's call it elegant, coherent physical laws then. They both refer to the same thing though.

I only comprehend the necessity you have to attribute "intelligence" to the universe in order to assert there is a intelligent law maker that created it. This is fine to believe, but does not mean it is so.
Things may just simply be the way they are just because. I like the third grader comparison you made. Children most often cut through alot of the stupidity some adults tend to come up with.

So baisaclly you are saying - everything is as it is, for no reason. Although it's orderly and follows physical laws. Does this make sense to you?

Agobot writes:

You are simply an extremely sophisticated cloud of positively and negatively charged energy, that asserts it came into being by chance. And i get the feeling that, in your case, you might be right.

Hmmm extremely sophisticated, I like that. Coming into existance by chance. Oh come now you know that is not so, I was planned by the creator that eventually the atoms that compose me would be used to let me type these words. BahHhwahhwwwaahhhaa!!!

It's not funny at all. That's what you are - a collection of atoms that types messages. What is so funny about it? And how does whatever you believe in, tie with this fact of life?

Agobot writes:

Human intelligence would not be possible if there were no intelligently made physical laws that govern the universe to allow us to understand our realm of existence.

And you know this to be true because?...because it just has to be that way. because?

It's called the Cause and Effect principle. The cause and effect principle holds everywhere in our classical realm of existence because it's based and follows the laws of physics inherent in the universe. Some elegant examples that rule our world and that act on the Cause and Effect principle:

Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

To quote Einstein "Nothing happens until it moves" :)

These are laws that we have found to be existing independent of us. We have found them and we based our intelligence and logic on them, by conforming to them and learning to put them to our use. This is what human logic is - it's conforming to the laws of physics. If you think otherwise, go accelerate your car to 250km/h and try to stop in 20 metres, you'll see that your logic and common sense is nothing else but the limitations placed by those same laws.

If you want to believe the Universe is intelligent because it uses intelligent laws that were created by a Intelligent being. And...that humanity may someday obtain God status, except that the limiting factor will be the universe itself. More power to you. I for one do not. This does not make me a atheist. It simply makes me a doubter kooky ideas.

OK, don't believe anything. The part that stated that we might become gods is derived from the book "physics of the impossible" by prof. Michio Kaku. My controversial statement that we might one day be able to transcend our physical form of existence stems from most scientists believing that in the future teleportation would be possible. It would take a bit more than that to transcend our physical existence for at least certain amount of time. That's my imagination based on other theoretical scientists predictions, that's why i am not pushing this idea. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't pay attention to it.

You certainly came out as an atheist in our argument - you stated several times that things exist because they exist(although there is a great paradox with the physical laws that allowed the universe to form and exist for as long as 13.7 billion years). If you are not so confident about atheism, that's a good sign. My aim is not to make anyone believe in the existence of a higher intelligence and a superplan but to let everyone know that science does not say there is no god. Science simply says the biblical god and genesis is an imaginary construct. Nothing more and nothing less.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein

"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 3:16 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by 1.61803, posted 10-24-2008 8:42 PM Agobot has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 509 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 149 of 185 (486796)
10-24-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Agobot
10-23-2008 8:14 PM


Re: Atheism
BTW, if we survive for long enough we are destined to become semi-gods, it's inevitable.

Again it seems like the word God is just used for lack of a better word. I would say that we would be humans, just more advanced.

However, it's disgusting to see people claim science tells them there is no creator/god when just 140 years ago their relatives had no electricity and were riding horses and carts.

I think the problem originated in allowing the word God to signify something supernatural. It is a meaningless word outside of religion. However, the religious Gods can be disproven by science. A philosophical type God does not interfere with a knowledge about the nature of the world in a scientific sense, it just interferes with the talking snake type of God.

People seem to think they are already gods, masters of their own fate

I am master of my fate, couldn't I easily take my own life? This does not equate to being Godly though, at least not a Biblical type God.

It's plain stupid to look around and declare - "there is no creator, i don't find evidence".

I think its stupid to claim either one, that there is or isn't, I think both come from either religious denial or acceptance. God means nothing as a word outside of religion. I don't claim there is or isn't a God because I am not trying to disprove religious Gods. If you say there is a force that creates the universe, then you did not describe a God, you are discribing the forces of nature. I don't think you need to attribute intelligence to these forces in order to prove their power, because attributing intelligence to it means that it had to at one point not be intelligent and then aquired it. Unless it is unnatural, however, if it is unnatural then we are not talking about the forces of this universe, because those are natural forces.

Who knows, maybe one day we'll get to meet and understand that elusive force that drives everything in such harmony for almost 14 billion years.

Or we'll rise up and find out that there is no such force, or harmony, at least not an intelligent one. Then we may realize the true nature of existance, namely that it is meaningless.


"All great truths begin as blasphemies"

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Agobot, posted 10-23-2008 8:14 PM Agobot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 5:20 PM onifre has not yet responded
 Message 153 by Agobot, posted 10-24-2008 6:00 PM onifre has responded

    
Agobot
Member (Idle past 3088 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 150 of 185 (486797)
10-24-2008 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by onifre
10-24-2008 5:01 PM


Re: Atheism
onifre writes:

Or we'll rise up and find out that there is no such force, or harmony, at least not an intelligent one. Then we may realize the true nature of existance, namely that it is meaningless.

Hi onifre,

Please use your imagination and whatever beliefs you hold to finish the sequence:

First RNA --> Single cell organism --> Multicellular organism --> Fish --> Reptile --> Mammal --> Ape --> Hominid --> Homo sapiens --> ...

Where are we headed? What does this sequence look like? To me it looks like a path to somewhere.

Everyone else, feel free to participate. Take into account that our bodies will evolve in a few hundred thousand years because of the changing life style. Finish the sequence in terms of million of years, take your wildest guess(while being rational :)).

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein

"Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by onifre, posted 10-24-2008 5:01 PM onifre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by bluescat48, posted 10-24-2008 5:56 PM Agobot has responded

    
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