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Author Topic:   ID and the bias inherent in human nature
christian atheist
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 105 (203202)
04-27-2005 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Limbo
04-27-2005 6:47 PM


Don't you think what's hindering the ID movement is it's too political? If it's not ready to be presented yet, then why try to force it into schools? This requires a lot of money and time that could be better spent in research.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Limbo, posted 04-27-2005 6:47 PM Limbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 8:42 AM christian atheist has not replied

  
Clark
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 105 (203210)
04-27-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Limbo
04-27-2005 6:47 PM


Money
Limbo writes:
I would argue that the biases in the scientific community and in the media are retarding the development of the ID theory.
I would argue Christians have had the money, education, and inclination for at least 140 years (if not a lot longer) to come up with a viable theory. Currently they're not even close to having one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Limbo, posted 04-27-2005 6:47 PM Limbo has not replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 105 (203275)
04-28-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by christian atheist
04-27-2005 11:12 PM


quote:
If it's not ready to be presented yet, then why try to force it into schools?
Who said it wasn't ready to be presented? Just because it isn't fully developed doesn't mean it isn't ready to be presented. It's like a newborn baby. See it for what it is, not for what you expect it to be.
People expect too much from it too soon. And who is talking about schools? "It takes two to tango", and it takes two to make something political. In this case...one to force it out of school and one to force it in.
quote:
I would argue Christians have had the money, education, and inclination for at least 140 years (if not a lot longer) to come up with a viable theory. Currently they're not even close to having one.
Harsh man, harsh. This kind of angry, intolerant, dismissive attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. All you need is a few influential people in the scientific community and in the media to think that way and presto! You have a chain reaction that leads to the current situation. I mean, c'mon Clark. Jeesh. "Not even close". Really?
This message has been edited by Limbo, 04-28-2005 08:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by christian atheist, posted 04-27-2005 11:12 PM christian atheist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2005 9:03 AM Limbo has not replied
 Message 20 by Wounded King, posted 04-28-2005 9:17 AM Limbo has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 19 of 105 (203279)
04-28-2005 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Limbo
04-28-2005 8:42 AM


I think that our views of what ID is are very different.
But I'm not expecting too much of ID, too soon. It's people in the ID movement who have been trying to force the pace.
Nor is it true that it takes two to raise a political issue. The ID movement is using political means to try to influence the science curriculum - against the current mainstream scientific consensus. I can't think of any genuine scientific movement that has done that. Evolution changed the scientific consensus and only got into schools on the back of that achievement. Why can't ID do the same ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 8:42 AM Limbo has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 20 of 105 (203285)
04-28-2005 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Limbo
04-28-2005 8:42 AM


"Not even close". Really?
Yes, really.
If there is one then perhaps you could direct us all as to where to find it.
Where is the ID equivalent of Darwin's 'On the Origin of Species'? Is it Behe's 'Darwin's black box'? Is it Dembski's 'No Free Lunch'?
Where is the clearly articulated central basis for a science of ID. The Panda's Thumb cogently asks what happened to the coherent theory Dembski predicted would be forthcoming from Mike Gene when he received tenure.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 8:42 AM Limbo has not replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 105 (203286)
04-28-2005 9:17 AM


ID is very compatable with MUCH of standard evolution theory. Evolution says that species change in response to environmental and genetic factors over the course of many generations. That is not incompatable at all with ID.
The vast majority of people don't really understand TOE, and even fewer understand ID. Unless you go to the source, and read what the ID people themselves say, you are getting an incomplete picture.
If all you know of ID comes from places like The Panda's Thumb, then you are biased without even realizing it.
This message has been edited by Limbo, 04-28-2005 09:23 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2005 9:26 AM Limbo has not replied
 Message 23 by Wounded King, posted 04-28-2005 9:28 AM Limbo has replied
 Message 27 by dsv, posted 04-28-2005 9:49 AM Limbo has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 22 of 105 (203288)
04-28-2005 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Limbo
04-28-2005 9:17 AM


quote:
ID is very compatable with MUCH of standard evolution theory.
That's a misleading statement. ID represents a whole range of positions. Including positions which are incompatible with a lot of evolutionary theory - and other branches of science.
Young Earth Creationism is recognised as being a legitimate ID position. The only dispute between the ID movement and YEC organisations is that the YEC organisations - unsurprisingly - continue their exclusive commitment to promoting their own views, rather than choosing to subordinate themselves to the more inclusive ID "Big Tent" strategy.

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 Message 21 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 9:17 AM Limbo has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 23 of 105 (203289)
04-28-2005 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Limbo
04-28-2005 9:17 AM


Was that supposed to address my post number 20? If so it failed miserably.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 9:17 AM Limbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 9:31 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 105 (203291)
04-28-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Wounded King
04-28-2005 9:28 AM


It was not. Much of what people say is not worthy of a responce. Sorry.
If any of you are brave enough to risk gaining a real understanding of ID, watch this presentation:
Conservative news, politics, opinion, breaking news analysis, political cartoons and commentary - Townhall
This message has been edited by Limbo, 04-28-2005 09:36 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Wounded King, posted 04-28-2005 9:28 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by JonF, posted 04-28-2005 9:39 AM Limbo has not replied
 Message 26 by Wounded King, posted 04-28-2005 9:43 AM Limbo has not replied
 Message 29 by CK, posted 04-28-2005 10:15 AM Limbo has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 25 of 105 (203292)
04-28-2005 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Limbo
04-28-2005 9:31 AM


It was not. Much of what people say is not worthy of a responce. Sorry.
Declaring victory and running didn't work in Vietnam, and it doesn't work here.
If any of you are brave enough to risk gaining a real understanding of ID, watch this presentation:
We don't argue by link around here. If you think there's something worth saying, say it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 9:31 AM Limbo has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 26 of 105 (203294)
04-28-2005 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Limbo
04-28-2005 9:31 AM


So its not worth producing evidence to back up pretty much the most important claim in your argument? If ID does have a viable coherent theory then it would have much more weight and be given due consideration, . What an interesting approach to debate you do have.
TTFN,
WK
P.S. Is a streaming audio hosted on a conservative political website really the best forum to present groundbreaking theoretical scientific research?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 9:31 AM Limbo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by JonF, posted 04-28-2005 10:10 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 27 of 105 (203295)
04-28-2005 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Limbo
04-28-2005 9:17 AM


Limbo writes:
If all you know of ID comes from places like The Panda's Thumb, then you are biased without even realizing it.
I have read a lot of ID material. Tell me, who must I read in order to have the clear understanding of ID that you seem to possess?
WK mentioned Behe and Dembski, are you saying even they are biased to what you would call "orthodox scientific method"?
Where is this enlightening ID literature that we are missing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 9:17 AM Limbo has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 28 of 105 (203303)
04-28-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Wounded King
04-28-2005 9:43 AM


P.S. Is a streaming audio hosted on a conservative political website really the best forum to present groundbreaking theoretical scientific research?
And really low quality streaming audio at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Wounded King, posted 04-28-2005 9:43 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 29 of 105 (203305)
04-28-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Limbo
04-28-2005 9:31 AM


Well, generally science isn't done by streaming audio.....
Can you point us towards a paper or two that you feel best sums up the ID position?
This message has been edited by General Krull, 28-Apr-2005 10:16 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Limbo, posted 04-28-2005 9:31 AM Limbo has not replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 105 (203309)
04-28-2005 10:22 AM


quote:
Is a streaming audio hosted on a conservative political website really the best forum to present groundbreaking theoretical scientific research?
quote:
We don't argue by link around here. If you think there's something worth saying, say it.
quote:
And really low quality streaming audio at that.
examples of bias causing dismisal of ID a priori.
Humans never cease to amaze me. If Galileo were alive today, would be proud of the way the scientific community deals with opposing ideas?
Do you think he would see the mindset of his ancient antagonists in all your posts?
AND ITS A VIDEO PEOPLE. CLICK IT.
This message has been edited by Limbo, 04-28-2005 10:24 AM
This message has been edited by Limbo, 04-28-2005 10:24 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2005 10:30 AM Limbo has replied
 Message 32 by nator, posted 04-28-2005 10:32 AM Limbo has not replied
 Message 33 by Wounded King, posted 04-28-2005 10:36 AM Limbo has not replied
 Message 39 by coffee_addict, posted 04-28-2005 10:56 AM Limbo has not replied
 Message 56 by DominionSeraph, posted 05-15-2005 5:17 AM Limbo has not replied

  
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