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Author Topic:   What Properties Might Light of Millennia Past Have that Today's Doesn't?
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1442 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


(1)
Message 136 of 170 (675239)
10-09-2012 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Percy
10-09-2012 9:24 AM


Re: Gibberish
Sorry, bigbangism is metaphysics so has nothing to do with any evidence. Such issues are examined on conceptual merits first and only after passing that test any evidence may become relevant. Otherwise, this whole evidence worship is modern idiocy. The feeling is that everybody is eager and ready to believe any nonsense as long as they heard that there was some evidence voted to be reliable by some reputable majority.
They say: we don't believe your proposition not because it is a clear contradiction in terms - that is fine by us- we don't believe it because we never heard there was any evidence for it. Just give us some evidence and we'll gladly join your faith.

Edited by Alfred Maddenstein, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Percy, posted 10-09-2012 9:24 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Son Goku, posted 10-09-2012 11:08 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 10-09-2012 8:06 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded
 Message 145 by Coyote, posted 10-09-2012 8:41 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1074
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 137 of 170 (675241)
10-09-2012 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-09-2012 10:17 AM


Re: Gibberish
What aspect of the Big Bang theory is a contradiction in terms?

(This might be too off-topic, if so I will stop discussing it.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 10:17 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 11:39 AM Son Goku has not yet responded
 Message 148 by zaius137, posted 10-10-2012 1:23 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1442 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 138 of 170 (675244)
10-09-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Son Goku
10-09-2012 11:08 AM


Re: Gibberish
Well, the topic is whether light could have had different properties in the past. I examine the hidden contradiction in the question itself. It could be met with another question. Which past exactly? Light comes from every relative direction. Time is a measure of distance and distances have different directions so the assumption that it is one and the same past all light is coming from is a contradiction here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Son Goku, posted 10-09-2012 11:08 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2012 11:52 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9750
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 139 of 170 (675245)
10-09-2012 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-09-2012 11:39 AM


Re: Gibberish
How about we nail the the term "past" down to mean six to ten thousand years ago as measured from any place in the Middle East that you care to name.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 11:39 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 12:35 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1442 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 140 of 170 (675248)
10-09-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by NoNukes
10-09-2012 11:52 AM


Re: Gibberish
Speak for yourself, Nuke and suit yourself. If you want to stick to linear universal calendar, you might as well do that. Then Bible, Friedman, Lemaitre and Guth will help you with the choice of magnitudes. If you don't want that, then we can discuss relativity of simultaneity. Otherwise, light coming pretty much the same from every past may strongly indicate it's constant everywhere and when.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2012 11:52 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2012 3:05 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 141 of 170 (675274)
10-09-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Dr Adequate
10-09-2012 2:14 AM


Re: Gibberish
...last Wednesday and the event known as me eating a hotdog?

For god sake I hope this is only an analogy! Please tell me you didn't actually eat a disgusting hotdog?! Have almonds in your analogy instead, they are better source of nutrition. We should all be trying to promote a healthier lifestyle.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-09-2012 2:14 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9750
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 142 of 170 (675275)
10-09-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-09-2012 12:35 PM


Thanks for your input...
Otherwise, light coming pretty much the same from every past may strongly indicate it's constant everywhere and when.

Finally we manage to get an on topic, fairly gibberish-free response from you. Nice one.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 12:35 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 6:13 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1442 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 143 of 170 (675281)
10-09-2012 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
10-09-2012 3:05 PM


Re: Thanks for your input...
Well, I might have used some other threads just to remind you folks that a very strong rational opposition to the currently assumed bigbangist wisdom in cosmetology does indeed exist, but the present topic has not been one of such occasions.
Here, all I did was investigate the very meaning of the question posed. What does it mean exactly - light of millennia past? Unlike the Universe which takes no plural by definition, cosmologically past should take no singular. Time and its direction is a strictly local measure relative to the local frame of reference and each of it spatial planes. Any instant of it is simultaneous with a particular relative location only, so to speak. If light is the only a constant standard of measure, then that should hold on ordinary scales too. Mary five meter to the left of you and John five meter to the right are both in your relative past. Is that exactly the same past the three of you should agree on? The cat thinks not. In that case, of course, the reciprocal delay is infinitesimal, yet the effect must exist necessarily. Negligible for all practical intents and purposes. In day to day affairs perfect simultaneity with one's neighbours is taken for granted without a second thought. Not so for the intents and purposes of physics though. The discrepancy grows as a function of distance and on the intergalactic scales lets itself be known in no uncertain terms. Thank you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2012 3:05 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-09-2012 9:17 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15647
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 144 of 170 (675283)
10-09-2012 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-09-2012 10:17 AM


Re: Gibberish
Alfred Maddenstein writes:

Otherwise, this whole evidence worship is modern idiocy.

If you really believe this then this isn't the website for you. This is from the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.

But a discussion about how one supports positions if not with evidence would be fascinating, and if you propose such a thread over at Proposed New Topics then in my moderator role I'll give it a look as soon as I can.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 10:17 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5905
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(2)
Message 145 of 170 (675284)
10-09-2012 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-09-2012 10:17 AM


Re: Evidence
Otherwise, this whole evidence worship is modern idiocy.

It is, eh?

Well, if you don't like evidence I suppose then you rely on magic, superstition, wishful thinking, old wives tales, folklore, what the stars foretell and what the neighbors think, omens, public opinion, astromancy, spells, Ouija boards, anecdotes, Da Vinci codes, tarot cards, sorcery, seances, primitive calendars, sore bunions, black cats, divine revelation, table tipping, witch doctors, crystals and crystal balls, ancient tribal myths, numerology, divination, faith healing, miracles, palm reading, the unguessable verdict of history, magic tea leaves, new age mumbo-jumbo, hoodoo, voodoo and all that other weird stuff?

Thanks, I'll stick to evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 10:17 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-10-2012 11:24 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 146 of 170 (675287)
10-09-2012 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-09-2012 6:13 PM


Re: Thanks for your input...
What does it mean exactly - light of millennia past?

What does it mean exactly --- the hotdog that I ate last Wednesday?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-09-2012 6:13 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-10-2012 8:54 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 884 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 147 of 170 (675292)
10-10-2012 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Son Goku
10-08-2012 7:42 AM


Re: The constants do change.
There are a few ways to define the electric charge of the electron. One of them is the renormalised charge (a better name would be the Coloumb charge). This is basically where you take the electric charge to be the value of the probability that an electron's momentum isn't altered when it interacts with a photon.

From what I know about QED you can fit in a thimble. I understand when you take the electric charge to be anything other than the “bare” (charge in the absence of interaction) you are suggesting a “scale” of interaction. In the case of applying the renormalization recipe to electric charge, you are inferring a change of scale. In high-energy situations, very short scales are relevant. You again can avoid those nasty infinities by asserting renormalization. I can barely say it… removing infinities by subtracting them…ouch!

In essence, the renormalized calculation becomes a function of the original “bare” values after applying a large momentum cutoff, the relationship is then inverted between the “bare” values and the renormalized ones. In case of electric charge, the expression parameter becomes the renormalized constant for electric charge.

None of this would matter except to say that there is a real constant of the electron charge and it becomes a fundamental parameter to renormalized charge. I thought it would be helpful to explain it in this way to promote a later point.

Situation… Quantum Gravity is in the gravest of circumstances. There comes a nock at the door; who could this be, a savior of kind? Alas, it is only renormalization and all is lost….

Zaius137

Although this seems quite abstract…

What is not in QED or QFT?

Alpha radiation is an odd one, in the sense that it doesn't really have anything to do with any of the forces. A nucleus that is unstable to alpha decays can be considered as "Alpha Particle + the rest". The strong force (or rather the pion force, an artifact of the true strong force) erects an potential energy barrier that prevents the alpha particle from escaping classically. However quantum mechanically the probability field of the alpha particle can just spread to the other side of the barrier and hence when something measures the alpha particle it has a chance to just appear on the other side.

What? Alpha radiation is uniquely dependent on the depth of that potential energy barrier (strong nuclear force). Lower that barrier and the probability of tunneling goes up. Try reading my citation, which covers the points I am defending.

quote:
”Quantum mechanical calculations are presented giving the decay constant for α-decay and its variation with depth of the nuclear potential well.” http://www.icr.org/...d-Decay-Theoretical-Considerations.pdf

quote:
Reasons will be given why the weak interaction coupling constant may also have changed, but not as much as the strong coupling constant. http://www.icr.org/...d-Decay-Theoretical-Considerations.pdf

By the way, I am not talking about altering the weak force to any great degree. I do not need to alter the carbon 14 process simply because that after a few thousand years it is completely inaccurate unless recalibrated by known dates. I must again refer you to the citation..

It's a fundamental parameter. See for example this page:
http://www.rug.nl/...rimp/researchDescription/TRIX/radiumIon

Maybe I am getting too picky here but you claimed it was a fundamental constant not a fundamental parameter. The definition is not equivalent in mathematics or physics. Refer to my opening argument.

There are small questions over how the area of the nebula which produced the sun collapsed, i.e. how many supernovae instigated it. However we know how the cloud collapsed, numerical simulations of our collapse model match the current orbits of the solar system, including the outer eccentric orbits.

This is simply not true about the giant gas cloud collapsing and heating to the point of nuclear fusion. Since James H. Jeans first examined the event, it has failed adequate explanation. Computer simulations can only simulate the event with parameters that are far from reality. You can suppose all kinds of shock waive scenarios from super Nova but try to claim those in the first star formations. The problem lays in the Ideal gas law.

…. Nuclear fusion within giant hydrogen/helium spheres doesn't depend on how the spheres formed … (really). If the Weak Force is altered enough to prevent Nuclear fusion, then Nuclear fusion cannot happen regardless of where the Sun came from.

Take anything to the extreme and you will produce extreme results. Those are not the positions of the Creationist. There obviously lay a discreet cutoff to variations of the weak force that will no longer permit fusion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Son Goku, posted 10-08-2012 7:42 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2012 8:36 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 884 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 148 of 170 (675293)
10-10-2012 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Son Goku
10-09-2012 11:08 AM


Re: Gibberish
Maybe not a contradiction in terms except it was not a Bang… Here are some regurgitated problems… Where would you start?

Horizon problem for CMB
Flatness problem
Where is all the Antimatter?
Energy polarization of Quasars
Quantized Red shifts
Type III stars are missing in early universe
Metals and heavy elements are far too abundant in early universe
Galaxy evolution does not match predictions.
Dark Matter and Dark Energy are not directly observable
Microwave anisotropy lacks predicted Quadrupoles
BB Inflation near or exceeding speed of light (Special Relativity objections)
The Higgs Boson does not impart mass to most of ordinary matter or black holes.
CMB fails the shadow test for background radiation
Expansion of the universe seems to have a general orientation of galaxies and implies a universe center. (Cosmological Principle is wrong).
Computational models applying Jeans length have failed to produce the more massive stars, which are more numerous than our sun.

Delayed stellar synthesis from new Vacuum energy addition (inflation on Jean’s diameter)

Just for shock effect. KABLAM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Son Goku, posted 10-09-2012 11:08 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2012 8:46 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9750
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 149 of 170 (675300)
10-10-2012 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by zaius137
10-10-2012 1:11 AM


Re: The constants do change.
Situation… Quantum Gravity is in the gravest of circumstances. There comes a nock at the door; who could this be, a savior of kind? Alas, it is only renormalization and all is lost….

What is your actual objection here?

do not need to alter the carbon 14 process simply because that after a few thousand years it is completely inaccurate unless recalibrated by known dates. I must again refer you to the citation..

Yes, where "completely inaccurate" means 'requires a 20% correction for dates up to 24000 years in the past'. Let's also remember that carbon dating is useless beyond about 50,000 years in the past, and is not used for such dates.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by zaius137, posted 10-10-2012 1:11 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9750
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 150 of 170 (675301)
10-10-2012 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by zaius137
10-10-2012 1:23 AM


Being a creationist means never exhausting a PRATT
Maybe not a contradiction in terms except it was not a Bang… Here are some regurgitated problems… Where would you start?

This list would have only a remote connection to anything in this thread, but it would be fair to note that the list contains things discussed in other threads. I would ordinarily suggest starting a thread, but in this case, such a suggestion would require pretending that you had not already received answers for many of these questions from Son Goku (See Message 60) "Every single one of your objections is false:" and others. It would also require disregarding that you gave a rather poor account of yourself when you were challenged to defend other points on this list.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by zaius137, posted 10-10-2012 1:23 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

    
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