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Author Topic:   New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution.
Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 11 of 433 (601970)
01-25-2011 11:42 AM


Mechanism?
By what mechanism do nerve cells communicate to DNA in germ line cells (i.e. sperm and eggs) in order to tell them what mutations need to be made in the next generation? In the case of eggs, they are already formed prior to the woman being born, so the changes have to be made to the intact egg and not to the cellular predecessors in the process of meiosis.
So how does that work? Is there a ganglia responsible for taking information from the brain and injecting that information into the gametes?

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Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 33 of 433 (602103)
01-26-2011 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Blue Jay
01-26-2011 10:09 AM


Re: Check your premise
Given this, we would predict that younger siblings will be fitter than their older siblings, because empathy will allow the mother to subconsciously improve her later offspring in relation to her earlier offspring.
I'm quite certain that this prediction will fail.
And it does fail. The rate of Down Syndrome and other chromosomal irregularities increase with the age of the parent.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 34 of 433 (602104)
01-26-2011 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by zi ko
01-25-2011 1:31 PM


Re: Check your premise
Surely yoy don't expect me to answer right now all the questions we are faced by my theory.
Your theory should at least be able to explain the facts we do have and be able to make different predictions than that made by the current theory of evolution. For example, your theory should be able to explain why chimps and humans differ in some genes more than others, and be able to do so better than the current theory. So what should we see when comparing the human and chimps genomes, and what predictions does your theory make that the current theory does not?
On top of that, you have two classic experiments to deal with. These experiments are:
1. Luria-Delbruck Fluctuation Experiment: In this experiment the authors discovered that the mutations needed for bacteriophage resistance occur in the absence of bacteriophage. Mutations leading to bacteriophage resistance were not a response to the death of their fellow bacteria as your theory would suggest.
2. Lederbergs' Plate Replica Experiment: This experiment used a different methodology to demonstrate the very same thing that was demonstrated in the Luria-Delbruck fluctuation experiment. They found that mutations conferring antibiotic resistance occur in the absence of antibiotic, not as a response to the presence of antibiotics.
I would be more than happy to discuss the particulars of these experiments if you are unclear as to how they demonstrate that mutations are random with respect to fitness.
On top of that, we observe that harmful mutations do indeed occur. According to your theory, what is the purpose of dwarfism (i.e. achondroplasia) or hemophilia? We know that these phenotypes can and do occur through spontaneous mutations, and we even know the genes that they occur in. So what is the nervous system trying to adapt to in these cases? You also need to explain why neutral mutations occur, mutations that produce no change in any organs or phenotypes.
The problem I see with your theory is that it doesn't explain the facts we do have. That is a big problem for any theory.

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 Message 13 by zi ko, posted 01-25-2011 1:31 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by zi ko, posted 01-26-2011 1:29 PM Taq has replied
 Message 355 by zi ko, posted 03-07-2012 11:26 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 43 of 433 (602163)
01-26-2011 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by zi ko
01-26-2011 1:29 PM


Re: Check your premise
Neural system mostly gives general directions.
What are these general directions, how are they communicated, and what are they communicated to?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 65 of 433 (602297)
01-27-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by zi ko
01-27-2011 12:20 AM


Re: Check your premise
Offsprings to be fitter.Through neurons.To DNA.
So how do the neurons know which mutations to cause, and how does the central nervous system know to target these changes to the sperm and eggs?
Even more, how do you explain offspring that are less fit than their parents? How do you explain children born with dwarfism and hemophilia?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 66 of 433 (602298)
01-27-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by zi ko
01-27-2011 1:22 AM


Re: Mechanism?
Evolution is result of interaction between organisms and enviroment.This means communication and knowing. Reaction presupposes knowing.
Gravel does not need to know the size of the sieve in order to be sorted.
Lottery players do not need to know the winning number in order to win.
Adaptation does not require communication or knowing what the best adaptation for a given environment is.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 67 of 433 (602299)
01-27-2011 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by zi ko
01-27-2011 11:09 AM


Re: Mechanism?
It is false according to known theory. But with Neurogenic evolution it is true,
Reality does not conform to theory. Theories conform to reality. You need to start with reality and work back towards theory.
The first thing you need to explain is how offspring can be born with mutations which put them at a disadvantage. We know that this is a fact, so your theory needs to explain it.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 68 of 433 (602300)
01-27-2011 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by zi ko
01-27-2011 10:45 AM


Re: Mechanism?
Simply i add another one,which fits with some known facts (punctuated equilibrium and stasis by St GOULD and ELDREDGED, and collective unconscious by C YOUNG).
There is no known facts which link the production of mutations in gametes with the central nervous system.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 69 of 433 (602301)
01-27-2011 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by zi ko
01-27-2011 10:23 AM


Re: Check your premise
I can't answer about my mechanism. It is amatter of neuronal biology.
If you have no testable mechanism then you have no theory.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by zi ko, posted 01-27-2011 10:23 AM zi ko has replied

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 83 of 433 (602478)
01-28-2011 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by zi ko
01-27-2011 10:34 PM


Re: Check your premise
I had made itclear from the beggining.Neuronal biology would be able to really test my hypothetical theory.
Then please outline the experiments that could be used to test your hypothesis.
You can't predict whether some theory is needed or not.
However, good theories do make predictions of what should happen in an experiment.
There is no need to explain how defective offsprings are born.
Yes, there is. You claim that the nervous system is producing changes in the genome. These diseases are due to changes in the genome. Therefore, your theory must explain them.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 84 of 433 (602479)
01-28-2011 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Bolder-dash
01-28-2011 11:32 AM


Well, it may not technically be DNA that passes on these life experiences, but knowledge is being passed on just the same.
Also, epigenetic changes only extend to a few generations. They are not permanent by any menas. They can not explain changes that occur over thousands of generations.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 85 of 433 (602483)
01-28-2011 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by zi ko
01-27-2011 10:58 PM


Re: Mechanism?
I don't say "believe me , i am right". But only" think, maybe there is another truth than this you unquestionably now believe".
I have seen this before. People who are not experienced scientists sometimes have a strange view of how science is actually done, or even how theories are constructed to begin with. They think that scientists have eureka moments where this completely off the wall idea pops into their head that is unattached to reality in anyway. They then propose this idea to their peers who all say how brilliant it is because of it's originality.
Well, it doesn't work that way unfortunately. Theories take a lot of hard work. Darwin spent many years testing his ideas and gathering data before he proposed the theory of evolution. Einstein worked hard to create a mathematical basis for his ideas of Relativity so that it could be tested, and still explain the data of the time. What scientists do NOT do is just throw their hair brained ideas into the scientific community and expect everyone else to do the hard work.
I don't mean this to be insulting. It's great to have new ideas and talk about them. However, before you can start pushing it as science you need to put in some hard work first to bolster your position. You need to understand genetics and cell biology. You need to understand how these things interact and how your theory fits in with this knowledge. Your hard work will be noticed which will lead to people having more respect for your ideas. As it is, the idea that neurons specifically mutate the genomes of sperm and eggs isn't worth serious consideration.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 104 of 433 (602734)
01-31-2011 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by zi ko
01-30-2011 2:06 PM


Re: Check your premise
Epigenesis and mirror cells give clues about mechanisms in my "hypothetical theory".
How so? How does empathy cause specific DNA methylation and histone packanging patterns in eggs and sperm? How does DNA methylation and histone packaging translate into DNA mutations?
Punctuated equilibrium and stasis are facts that can be explained by my hypothesis or theory.
How are they explained by your hypothesis in ways that are already not explained by random mutation and natural selection?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 110 of 433 (602904)
02-01-2011 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Larni
02-01-2011 3:00 PM


Re: An apology due....
As much as it pains me to say it zi ko is in fact correct with his theories.
So say we all.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 122 of 433 (603030)
02-02-2011 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by zi ko
02-02-2011 6:24 AM


Re: An apology due....
As it says about that organisms react and ghange as regads to theier phenotypes, in reacting to enviromental ghanges, some times up their DNA, in animal and plants,fit well with my sayngs.
How do the patterns of DNA methylation and histone packaging indicate that neurons are guiding this process?
Surely there is not a clear evidence of a direct action on DNA, although tthere are some reports about it, but as if it taking place over thousants of years, it can't be prooved.
Then what observations did you base your hypothesis on? How should the patterns of DNA mutation differ between a randomly mutating system and a system guided by neurons?
It remains for biologists to find out the mechanisms for this function, and the tissues where it is happening.
Actually, that would be the job of the person proposing the hypothesis which is you.
Empathy is very much related to mirror neurones.
You hypothesis has nothing to do with the production of emotion in the brain. Your hypothesis deals with mutations produced by the central nervous system. Please focus on that.
The phenomenon of punctuated equilibrium and stasis are well established facts, and my hypothesis explains it quitely well.During some geological periods enviromental changes are more intense than others.Organisms neural systems are feeling them and so they give their relative messages for evlutional proccess to start going.
Random mutation and natural selection already explain this phenomenon quite nicely without any input from the nervous system.
Let's use an analogy. I hypothesize that there is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow. Is the fact that diffracted sunlight produces a range of different colors supportive of my hypothesis? Is the existence of gold supportive of my hypothesis?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by zi ko, posted 02-07-2011 8:41 AM Taq has replied

  
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