Born Again

So you see it. I see it as a simple statement of fact.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

There is no need to avoid quoting. In fact, offering some sort of Biblical support for your position would be very productive. The process Jesus mentions to Nicodemus is an active one: something we do. How is God 'making an abode with us', 'compounding His life with our life', or 'mingling His life with our life' active processes? How is what God does something we do? The only time Jesus makes any mention of 'born again' is in John 3, where it has nothing to do with God 'indwelling our being'whatever that even means. In fact, what Jesus describes to Nicodemus are the things we must do; he makes no mention whatsoever of God doing anything as part of the 'born again' process. The argument has been made that being 'born again' was already an established Jewish concept at the time of Jesus. Since the people mentioned in Ephesians 4:18 are Gentiles, I'm not sure how that passage serves to counter that argument. How does it show that without being 'born again' and 'receiving Christ' one is alienated from the life of God? But what does this have to do with being 'born again'? In John 3, Jesus makes it clear that being 'born again' is something we must do; it is not a passive process. How does 'Christ's redemptive death' involve us doing anything at all?How does anything you've mentioned involve doing anything at all more than sitting around and 'receiving Christ' like we receive the 6 o' clock news from the couch? How is this passive process in line with the active process Jesus mentions to Nicodemus?Jon

---

Love your enemies!

You know something ? I think we are going around in circles.We had this round of question and answer before. Didn't we ?I mean, I am pretty sure that I already went through passages showing the Christian's active participation in this matter of God working Himself into man after the new birth.I am pretty sure that this round of discussion was already traversed. We're right back where we started.Excuse me then. I meant to start a fresh new approach to aspects perhaps not yet talked about. I should not have flagged you because I think we have already had this round of talking.There is plenty, plenty, plenty in the New Testament showing that the regenerated believer actively cooperates in opening up more of his soul to allow the Spirit of Christ to move into more chambers of his mind, emotion, and will.There is simply NO shortage of evidence that being born of God is only the beginning of a life long cooperation to mature in the life in which the believer was born this second time spiritually.Sorry I pulled your chain again. Obviously, your position remains the same. And there is no doubt on my part that the second birth is only a beginning of the process of sanctification and transformation which absolutely requires man's continued cooperation.Must be time for me to leave this subject unless I see some new faces here on it. I've danced with you and Ringo and jar now.Tried to help you some on this. Little need to repeat things on the same people.Have a great day jon. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think that much of this argument revolves around how someone was raised. For some of us, our parents helped us. Perhaps they spoiled us a bit, but they never allowed us to fail. They kept us on the path and in the game. For others, failure was seen as a blessing. For those, a harsh judgement by a loving God seems fair. For the rest of us, a forgiving God who empowers us to grow seems far more fair.

Well, this thread is about the Christian notion of 'born again'. It's not clear to me how what you've posted here relates to that notion. Perhaps you'd be willing to clarify for me?Thanks,
Jon

---

Love your enemies!

You may notice that there is a re-occuring attitude in many of these posts the runs like this:" I have to DO something. I cannot be passive. I need to be DOING something. Jesus is asking us to DO the work of being born again. I have to work. I cannot simply passively sit."In this chapter I cannot find Jesus commanding us to do anything before verse 15 where He desires us to believe into Him. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life." Now lifting up the Son of Man refers to His enemies lifting Him up on the cross. So that does not count as a command from Jesus to His believers. But "that everyone who believes into Him" may be considered His desire that we DO the action of BELIEVING into Him.Before that verse 15 it is hard for me to see Jesus asking us to do anything.Some may say that He asks us to be born again. But that is really a word on what the Spirit of God is going to do - " ... that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (v.6) Okay, there is possibly something that He asks us to do in verse 7. And that is to nor marvel but believe His word: "Do not marvel that I said to you You must be born anew." (v.7) Here is something we can do in chapter 3. We can believe His word and not marvel or argue against His word. This He told Nicodemus. This is a directive. But it is still a directive like that in verse 15, to believe into Him - "That everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life." Do you see Jesus commanding us to do something beside believe into Him before verse 7 or perhaps 15?As I look lower I see this: This might be considered as a word in chapter three for the believer to DO something. That is to come to Himself as the light that his works may be manifested to be wrought in God.To the readers of John chaper 3 anxious to know what they can DO, perhaps this is the verse for them. Come to the light that your works may be manifested that they are wrought in God.I can see how some would say "You see? We have to be doing works wrought in God FIRST and then come to Jesus the Light."Maybe that case could be made. However, I would point out that in this chapter the works are not the cause to receive eternal life, but the believing, which is the coming to Him in belief: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him may not perish but have eternal life." (v.16) In the book of Acts we have a man named Cornelius. He gave alms to the poor. He believed in God apparently. And his good works were said to go up before God as a memorial: Cornelius may be a good example of one who was willing to come to Christ for salvation because he had a soft heart towards God. And with the knowledge that he had of God he tried to be pleasing to God. He came to the light.And Peter preached salvation to Cornelius the Gentile and to those gathered in his house: The result of Peter's message was that the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius.Here may be an example of what Jesus was saying in John 3:21 - I am thankful for this example. Notice Cornelius did not refuse to hear the gospel message of Peter. Cornelius did not respond like this: "Listen Peter. I am here doing good works and giving alms to the poor. I even pray to God. Why do I need to hear about forgiveness of sins ? Can't you see how godly and good I am? I don't need to hear about Jesus the Judge of the living and the dead. What Jesus is and did has nothing to do with me. I am fine here just doing good deeds as I have been doing for a long time.

​

Do not expect me to stop my alms giving and just passively sit here being happy about being forgiven. " Cornelius was so willing to come to Jesus, to come to Jesus the light of the world. He had some previous experience with a soft conscience toward God and of trying his best to be charitable. And God remembered his alms giving.But God sent the Apostle Peter to complete his knowledge. Cornelius needed to hear the Gospel of Jesus the crucified and resurrected One who was to be Judge of the living and the dead. And Cornelius needed to hear about the forgiveness of his sins through believing into THIS One - Jesus of Nazareth.I do not discourage the good doing of anyone. But it does not exempt us from having to believe into Christ as God commanded Peter to inform Cornelius.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Its quite simple, Lad. Beliefs evolve from family values. Family values determine to a large degree the type of beliefs one holds and why.

Suppose that's true, how does it relate to 'born again'? How does it answer the questions in the OP?

quote:

---

Jon in Message 1:

​

So, what the heck does it mean to be 'born again', and where did the notion originate that such a thing were the beginning moment of the Christian life?

---

Jon

---

Love your enemies!

You need the whole book of John to see that the new birth is a matter of RECEIVING a divine life giving Person - the Son of God. "As many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God ... Who were begotten ... of God" ( John 1:12,13) I have highlighted the key words above. The receiving of Christ leads to being born, begotten of God.Do you think this prologue has nothing to do with John chapter 3?How is man begotten of God? How is man born of God? How is man born again ? It is by receiving Christ the Son of God. To those who receive Him, who believe into His name, authority is granted to become children of the begetting Divine Father - God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

He makes mention of the believers being justified by comparing Himself to the brass serpent lifted up in the wilderness by Moses.To be healed of the poison injected into man by the venomous serpent has damaged man, killing man. This is believing in Christ who was judged by God on the cross. He was lifted up as the bronze serpent was. He took up our sins in His body. He appeared to the judging God as the totality of the Satanic poisoned human race. If we look upon this lifted up One, believing in His redemptive death, we receive eternal life.Eternal life has to BEGIN sometime for the beleiver. It begins at the moment of being born from above, born again. And this is by God's agency who is the Holy Spirit.So our believing into Christ the Redeemer, Who was lifted up on the cross in the form of the total Satan poisoned human race, causes us to be justified by God.Being justified, eternal life can be imparted into our being. That there is a moment of its beginning should not be hard to understand.Other chapters speak of our ABIDING in this life that He may ABIDE in us. Namely in chapter 15 we see Christ as the true vine of life and the believers as the abiding branches drawing their life and supply by abiding in Him and loving one another.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

As I watch these types of discussions unfold, I will only say that I believe it is BOTH. Abiding in Christ and becoming more like Christ will quite naturally lead a personality to do more for their fellow brethren, point being that works are not necessary for salvation but, rather, are a sign of it. Good works point to an inner spirit that groans with anticipation.

I don't think that born again is some magical mantrai do believe that a person with an inner glow will cheerfully DO more for others
but that doing is itself unrelated to fulfilling any christian merit badge needed to become a saint.To abide in Christ and accept His Spirit means to allow the living Christ to commune with you. In so doing, you will cheerfully DO more for others.

Oh good grief.How exactly do you commune with the "living Christ"?

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

quote:

---

Oh good grief.

​

How exactly do you commune with the "living Christ"?

---

He is my conscience. That pesky idea that I should help someone who in no way can help me, for example.

Is that so... ?

quote:

---

Matt. 7:21—23, 26—27; 25:37—46 (NRSV):

​

'Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?" Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers."

​

And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it felland great was its fall!'
. . .

'Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?" And the king will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me." Then he will say to those at his left hand, "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they also will answer, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?" Then he will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'

---

quote:

---

James 1:22—27; James 2:14—17 (NRSV):

​

But be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves. For if any are hearers of the word and not doers, they are like those who look at themselves in a mirror; for they look at themselves and, on going away, immediately forget what they were like. But those who look into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and persevere, being not hearers who forget but doers who actthey will be blessed in their doing.

​

If any think they are religious, and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
. . .

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

---

Are you sure about that?

---

Love your enemies!