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Author Topic:   American Budget Cuts
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 28 of 350 (605623)
02-21-2011 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Bolder-dash
02-21-2011 12:29 AM


Re: Opt Out Plan
Bolder I have to commend you on this post and the previous one. You have made a very clear argument showing the ridiculousness of the tea party and anti-tax movement.
It is very clear that the republicans want to move to a fee based society. When everything has a fee and is privatized there is more places to make profit. Also, it is obvious that the republican, tea party groups do not view anything long term. Feeing the middle class to death is not a long term viable plan for an economy. As this continues the wealthy will be come a smaller and smaller group.
It seems to me that the anti-tax people live in a fantasy world. They refuse to see the benefits they receive from taxes and also it seems a lot of them are not wealthy but are damn sure that one day they will be. They are a bunch of wannabe's.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-21-2011 12:29 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 128 of 350 (606049)
02-23-2011 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Coyote
02-22-2011 10:59 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Just how much of the income of those who are productive do you think you and those who think like you can steal?
50%? 75%? 100%?
Do you understand how a progressive income tax system works?
You might want to explore the concepts of marginal and effective tax rates.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Coyote, posted 02-22-2011 10:59 PM Coyote has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 136 of 350 (606085)
02-23-2011 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by cavediver
02-23-2011 5:53 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Why would anyone buy those shares if those shares do not receive a dividend?
Many companys do not pay a dividend to stock holders. Some people wise in the market feel dividends are not a good financial move by companies.
quote:
Recent statistics show that stocks that didn't pay dividends greatly outperformed those that did. Over the past five years, a set of stocks that did not pay dividends returned 1,300%, while a set of stocks paying up to 2.4% dividends returned only 144%.
404

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 5:53 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 6:57 PM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 143 of 350 (606098)
02-23-2011 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by cavediver
02-23-2011 6:48 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
And no, most stock market activity is not "gambling".
Sure it is. Every time you buy a stock you are taking a calculated risk that it will go up in value. I don't see how it can be anything else but a gamble. If it wasn't a gamble there would be a guarantee on the investment.
The stock market works on the fact some stocks go up and some go down. If all stocks went up there would be no stock market.
The ignorance here is staggering.
You really need a basic economics class and a class on how all financial markets function. Ever hear of the commodities markets?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 6:48 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 7:28 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 148 of 350 (606122)
02-23-2011 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by cavediver
02-23-2011 7:28 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
No response that buying stocks is ultimately a gamble? Nothing to say on that?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 7:28 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 9:13 PM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 261 of 350 (606800)
02-28-2011 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 12:14 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
So you are looking forward to the foundation of an aristocratic class of the idle wealthy?
The days of Georgian and Victorian England are an ideal for you?
Can't wait till we bring back the workhouses and debtors prisons? So much good comes from orphanages doesn't it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 12:14 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 12:35 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 265 of 350 (606818)
02-28-2011 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 12:35 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
So I take it you do.
And there comes the rhetoric.
You didn't actually point out any particular stage of the process thats unfair or undesirable, you just skipped straight to bitching about people being wealthier than you.
You want what they have, given to them by their parents who earned it.
Wow lets look at my post and see if I was bitching.
So you are looking forward to the foundation of an aristocratic class of the idle wealthy?
The days of Georgian and Victorian England are an ideal for you?
Can't wait till we bring back the workhouses and debtors prisons? So much good comes from orphanages doesn't it.
Nope looks like straightforward questions to me. And not surprisingly you refused to answer any.
You see societies have found that they are more stable if there is a process in place to prevent the consolidation of wealth in the hands of the few.
Progressive taxation is actually a long term gain for society and the vast majority of people in a society. You see governments job is not to protect peoples wealth. Its job is to do the most good it can for the most people. I like this explanation
quote:
America's government has at least two fundamental functions, protection and empowerment. Protection includes the police, firefighters, emergency services, public health, the military, and so on. Empowerment includes the infrastructure needed for business and everyday life: roads, communications systems, water supplies, public education, the banking system for loans and economic stability, the SEC for the stock market, the courts for enforcing contracts, air traffic control, support for basic science, our national parks and public buildings, and more. We are usually aware of protection. But the empowerment infrastructure, provided by taxes, is usually taken for granted, hidden, or ignored. Yet it is absolutely crucial, a fundamental truth about America and why America provides opportunity.
Source
Infrastructure and social programs must be paid for. Are you of the belief that everyone on social programs "should go get a job"? If so, how do people survive on minimum wage? Where do you think the handicapped and indigent or mentally ill are going to go if we cut social programs to the bone? Are you going to up your charitable giving? Or do you think they will disappear? How much more do you think you will pay for prisons and orphanages and police protection if we cut social programs?
When would you say the US economy was the strongest? Post WWII through the 1970's statistically was when the economy boomed. What drove that? Government spending and investment. Should we not have built the interstate highway system? Not have improved and built the infrastructure that allowed the economy to blossom? Close down schools that don't pay for themselves?
Do you know when the marginal tax rate in the US was highest? The same time period.
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php
How about showing us a society that was or is stable, that allowed for the continuing concentration of wealth and a continuing and growing disparity between the rich and the poor.
you just skipped straight to bitching about people being wealthier than you.
Here is the difference between people like you and people like me. All you can see is the personal effect of these issues. I do not begrudge people being wealthier than me. I don't want their money. I am sitting pretty damn good financially. Better than probably 75% of the people in this country. My concern is the long term effect of not dealing with social issues and infrastructure issues. It is called having a social conscience.
Go ahead and go John Galt. In actuality it is a stupid idea, since we have a progressive tax system and there is a thing called a marginal tax rate. But then again if you are making over $250k a year there may be a slight benefit to you personally.
Are you a proponent of the opt out idea?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 12:35 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 1:41 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 268 of 350 (606830)
02-28-2011 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 1:41 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Well you addressed my comments from the previous post but I guess you don't want to address the issues form the one you actually replied to.
Lets.
It ain't bitching it is looking at realistic potential scenarios.
I never even hinted at the rich being a ruling class of any sort, or that they would necessarily be idle (although in theory they could if they wished).
Do you really believe that concentration of wealth will not result in a de facto ruling class if not a de jure one? Wow. Do you pay any attention to politics in this country now?
The problems of Georgian and Victorian England are easily identifiable as oppressive practices, not just because someone had a bunch of money. The monetary accumulation was a byproduct, not the cause.
Spoken as if you had firm evidence for this. This concentration of wealth allowed for the oppressive nature of the society. You do realize that the concentration of wealth is something that societies have been working against for millenia. There could be no oppressive practices if there was no concentration of wealth. Please show how it was a byproduct and not a cause.
Bankruptcy is certainly agreeable and the very idea of a "free market" goes against workhouses. Its just more bitching from you.
OK no workhouses, but we need an underclass of the working poor? Instead of government getting labor we will let corporations create more low wage jobs. Cause the priority is corporate profits, because that will allow them to create more low wage jobs. Did you know that counties that have Wal-Marts see a rise in social service costs. That's right these "wonderful" corporations can cost taxpayers even more.
quote:
Wal-Mart's low prices don't come cheap. In fact, each Wal-Mart store employing 200 people costs taxpayers approximately $420,750 annually in public social services used by Wal-Mart workers whose low wages and unaffordable health insurance mean most of them are among the working poor. That's the finding of Everyday Low Wages: The Hidden Price We All Pay for Wal-Mart, a report by the minority staff of the U.S. House of Representatives Education and the Workforce Committee.
Source
Original report
Show me how the Walton's investments are improving the lives of people. Oh wait I forgot. It is all about profit, leave your social conscience at the door.
All the scenarios are historical facts that were the result of the concentration of wealth. It is ridiculous to think that it cannot happen again if we allow for the concentration of wealth as you advocate.
Taxation is a necessary element of running a society with public services, but drawing too much from discretionary income has long term social and infrastructure issues as well.
I vehemently disagree. Tax cuts do not spur growth. Show me an example where it does. Tax cuts consolidate wealth. The greatest periods of economic growth are periods of high government spending and high marginal tax rates.
Still waiting for you to address post 265.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 1:41 PM Phage0070 has not replied

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