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Author Topic:   American Budget Cuts
Taq
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Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 64 of 350 (605878)
02-22-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 12:27 AM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
A corporation is simply an organization of workers which is tailored to certain types of investment.
A corporation is an organization that hires and fires workers in order to make money. Compare this to a public organization that is formed on the idea of benefitting the public without needing to make as much money as possible.
For example, do you really think that health insurance companies care about your health? Well, they don't. They care about their profits, even if that means denying medical care to their customers.
If you are a worker I would think twice about the idea that a corporation has your best interests at heart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 12:27 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 4:36 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 65 of 350 (605880)
02-22-2011 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 11:20 AM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Basically you are arguing that the CEO working to run a corporation isn't really "working".
Is the CEO working 100 times harder than the employee making 1/100th of the CEO's salary?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 11:20 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 4:44 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 67 of 350 (605892)
02-22-2011 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 4:36 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
If you are a worker you would be a fool to think a corporation has your best interests at heart, and the same goes for a customer. Its the worker or customer's responsibility to have their own best interests at heart; to go to the best job they can get and buy the best product they can find at the lowest cost.
Then the workers and customers should work toward creating public systems that answer to their needs, correct? If we had our best interests at heart we would work towards public, single payer health care, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 4:36 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 70 of 350 (605896)
02-22-2011 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 4:44 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Why would how hard an employee is working be at all relevant?
You are the one going on and on about effeciency. Perhaps you can figure this one out all on your own? It would seem to me that the need for profit takes all of the effeciency out of the corporate model.
The question is, does the CEO's work at the company provide 100 times the benefit to the company than the average worker? In most cases it is those decisions which are making or breaking the success of the company with billions of dollars riding on them being good ones. And if they didn't pay as much could they get the same quality of work?
Of course, the benefit you speak of is profit, not a benefit for society in general.
So who is benefitting the most from massive defense spending? It isn't Rosie the Riveter. It's the corporations and the fat cats that run them. They are the ones profitting. If we reduce defense spending what could we do with that money? Start a real health care system in this country that actually benefits sick people instead of lining the pockets of CEO's and fat cat investors. A lot of good could be done with this money instead of supplying yachts to CEO's whose money is directly related to denying people money for medical care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 4:44 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 5:29 PM Taq has replied
 Message 73 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2011 5:53 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 74 of 350 (605905)
02-22-2011 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by cavediver
02-22-2011 5:53 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
What???? Is this now the "let's be utterly ignorant of micro-economics" thread?
Are you saying that a corporation with top heavy salaries is more effecient than a corporation that pays everyone the same wage?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2011 6:29 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 75 of 350 (605908)
02-22-2011 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 5:29 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Sure. Why do you go to work in the morning, for personal profit or the benefit of society?
Actually, the latter. If it was about profit I wouldn't have chosen to be a scientist.
Corporations with investors. Investors like Rosie the Riveter's grandmother. Are you saying those investors are not part of society?
How does the massing of wealth in a minority of society help the society over all?
I think you are! You begrudge the wealthy of their money and the ability to use it to make more money for themselves!
I begrudge the fact that this is done on the backs of the middle class. Do you think it is moral for a health insurance CEO to buy yachts with money gained by denying medical coverage to a 5 year old with leukemia?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 5:29 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 7:03 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 78 of 350 (605915)
02-22-2011 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by cavediver
02-22-2011 6:29 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Errr, you were talking about profit. Why are you now talking about salaries? Perhaps to emphasise my point?
How does taking out large chunks of capital (aka profit) improve the effeciency of a company?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2011 6:29 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2011 7:20 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 83 of 350 (605921)
02-22-2011 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 7:03 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
I assume you also make your purchasing decisions based on what aids society rather than what provides the best value?
I do prefer to buy from locally owned and small companies since they tend to benefit society more than large companies. I prefer to buy a hamburger from the local mom and pop for a dollar more than I would pay at one of the big chains.
Overall though it aids society because the most successful people gradually gain access to more resources allowing them to leverage whatever it was that made them successful.
"Whatever it was" can turn out to be practices with questionable morality.
Again, no health insurance company ever made money denying coverage.
Umm, yes they do. Where do you think that money goes? Do you think it just disappears?
You are just trying to paint an unrealistic emotional picture to justify something you can't honestly defend.
Unrealistic? You have never heard of people being denied coverage once they get sick?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 7:03 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 7:46 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 90 of 350 (605933)
02-22-2011 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by cavediver
02-22-2011 7:20 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
1) Cart before horse
2) Why are you assuming profit is "taken out"?
3) When profit is "taken out", can you think of ways in which this would lead to growth of the company, hence enabling it to capitalise on economies of scale, hence further improving efficiency?
When Bill Gates buys a yacht with the money he made at Microsoft how does this lower the cost of their programs and improve their bottom line? If that money had stayed in the company to pay for more quality assurance wouldn't this improve the product more than a yacht for Billy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2011 7:20 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 4:03 AM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 92 of 350 (605940)
02-22-2011 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 7:46 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
But thats... *wait for it*... wasteful! Money represents your effort, and you just spent more effort for that burger than you needed to. Your frequenting the local mom and pop joint was just an overall waste for society.
I don't consider it a waste to have my money go to people who care about their employees and their community. I find it disappointing that you would consider this to be a waste.
What money, that money that was paid for no coverage?
It is called premiums, something the insurance company takes in while the consumer is healthy. When the consumer becomes ill they no longer insure them, and for some strange reason they don't refund those premiums. This is all done in the name of profit.
Or are you still assuming that the company isn't paying for an eventuality they said they would cover?
There is plenty of that as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 7:46 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 8:22 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 93 of 350 (605941)
02-22-2011 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 7:59 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
I understand you feel that way. But also understand that you are proposing to take people's money, the fruits of their labor, and give it to other people who you think deserve it more.
Health care should be given on the basis of need while taxes should be based on the ability to pay. That is, unless, you think the poor should not get medical care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 7:59 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 8:31 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 101 of 350 (605952)
02-22-2011 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 8:22 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Thats an emotional argument, not an economic truth. Its an inefficiency no matter how good it makes you feel.
It is only an inefficiency if you consider profit as your only motivator.
So you are still arguing that they don't fulfill their contracts. Some people cheat others by saying they will sell them something and then after being paid don't deliver. Is that a criticism of the idea of selling things?
It is a criticism of a system driven by profit instead of helping people.
The fact that sometimes people break the law and cheat people doesn't qualify as a criticism of the proper system of exchange.
It isn't against the law, that's the whole problem. Some of this was fixed in the health care bill that was signed into law not too long back.
Also, other countries pay way less per capita than we do, and they get better care. Guess what? Their health care systems are government run. Ours is run by private enterprise. What does that tell you?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 95 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 8:22 PM Phage0070 has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 102 of 350 (605953)
02-22-2011 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phage0070
02-22-2011 8:31 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
Sorry, I don't think that Communism is either a practical or an ethical economic system.
Actually, it's socialism, not communism. It is the same method that we use for schools, roads, etc. We educate children based on their needs, not their parents income. Why not run health care the same way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phage0070, posted 02-22-2011 8:31 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 125 of 350 (606032)
02-23-2011 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by cavediver
02-23-2011 4:03 AM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
What is this "money he made at Microsoft"? Are we talking about the wage he was paid? Are we talking about bonuses he received? Are we talking about the wealth created by selling shares in what was originally his own company?
Of course selling of stocks is not included, but I do include salary, bonuses and dividends.
And what has any of this to do with the general concept of profit vs efficiency?
With money going out for things that do not increase effeciency I thought the link would be obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 4:03 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 3:53 PM Taq has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 133 of 350 (606068)
02-23-2011 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by cavediver
02-23-2011 3:53 PM


Re: Budget Cuts & Reality
So you exclude the one element related to profit and we're back to salaries again, which have nothing to do with the company profit...
Trading shares does not take capital away. It just trades hands.
You may disagree with my view, but I really don't see the difference between skimming off the top and the extraordinary salaries that CEO's make nowadays. For all intents and purposes, it is a drain on capital.
Is profit something that "goes out"?
The portion of the profit taken out of the company for personal use? Yes. Isn't that the whole point, to make the owners of the company rich?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by cavediver, posted 02-23-2011 3:53 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
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