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Author Topic:   American Budget Cuts
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 350 (606834)
02-28-2011 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by crashfrog
02-28-2011 2:48 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
crashfrog writes:
Are you suggesting that the average American worker somehow managed to increase the yield of "the sweat of their brow" by a little more than double simply through working harder?
Sure! Working harder, working smarter, working longer hours - an eight-hour workday is only one third of a day, after all - it's not that difficult to imagine the average worker doubling their productivity. Even if they simply worked two shifts instead of one, there's enough hours to do that and still get home for a night's rest. It's not good for you, which may partially explain the dramatic decrease in American public health since 1970.
So, the notion of workers doubling their productivity isn't all that unreasonable. There are 24 whole hours in a day, and in 1970 they were only working for a third of them. We could explain the increase in productivity simply by supposing that workers are working twice as many hours.
I'm not going to bother responding if you aren't even going to make a pretense of addressing reality.
crashfrog writes:
Just under 3 times greater; exactly how little do you think people worked back then?
I think there were less people working, and people were working less effectively due to more primitive technologies.
Its adjusted for the change in population.
And yes, the technology and equipment was a big factor. Thats investment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:54 PM Phage0070 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 272 of 350 (606835)
02-28-2011 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 12:35 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
You want what they have, given to them by their parents who earned it.
What's your evidence that they earned it, aside from the fact that they have it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 12:35 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 2:54 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 273 of 350 (606836)
02-28-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 2:52 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
I'm not going to bother responding if you aren't even going to make a pretense of addressing reality.
Reality?
How many hours are there in a day, Phage? Be specific.
Its adjusted for the change in population.
Total GDP isn't, which is what we've been talking about.
Well, it's what I've been talking about; you've been talking about made-up "investments" by rich people which you can't seem to identify or verify.
And yes, the technology and equipment was a big factor. Thats investment.
What's your evidence that every single one of the 1% wealthiest got that way as a result of technology and equipment investments?
Remember how an investment in Microsoft doesn't entitle you to money from Apple? Be specific as to these "investments."
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 2:52 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 350 (606837)
02-28-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by crashfrog
02-28-2011 2:52 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
crashfrog writes:
You want what they have, given to them by their parents who earned it.
What's your evidence that they earned it, aside from the fact that they have it?
Whats your evidence that they didn't? I don't have to justify that I earned and deserve what I own to you, and neither do they. If you are going to accuse them of obtaining it dishonestly you have to make your case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:57 PM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 280 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 4:31 PM Phage0070 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 275 of 350 (606838)
02-28-2011 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 2:54 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Whats your evidence that they didn't?
Their wealth increased but their productivity remained static, as you've already agreed.
If you are going to accuse them of obtaining it dishonestly you have to make your case.
I already have, and you've agreed with the case by agreeing to all of its factual particulars. So it's no longer under debate that the wealthy have simply stolen the bulk of your wealth. Your sole defense are these unspecified "investments" which you refuse to discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 2:54 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 3:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 350 (606839)
02-28-2011 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by crashfrog
02-28-2011 2:57 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
crashfrog writes:
Whats your evidence that they didn't?
Their wealth increased but their productivity remained static, as you've already agreed.
No, in fact I expressly disagreed to that on the grounds that their invested wealth is responsible for increases in productivity. You have continually misrepresented my position, things to which I have agreed, and even data which you have provided.
Since you are not going to discuss this honestly, I am done here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 2:57 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by crashfrog, posted 02-28-2011 3:12 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2096 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 277 of 350 (606841)
02-28-2011 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by RAZD
02-28-2011 1:07 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Curiously, millionaires seem to pay less percentage overall than many in the middle class. So they are stealing from the government as well as from the workers.
And the poor pay no income tax while enjoying a lot of benefits that the middle class is not allowed. Talk about stealing!
The way to get a lot more of something is for the government to subsidize it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2011 1:07 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Omnivorous, posted 02-28-2011 3:19 PM Coyote has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 278 of 350 (606842)
02-28-2011 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 3:01 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
No, in fact I expressly disagreed to that on the grounds that their invested wealth is responsible for increases in productivity.
Well, ok. What's your evidence that they made these investments in the American worker? Be specific. What investments were made?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 3:01 PM Phage0070 has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3973
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 279 of 350 (606843)
02-28-2011 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Coyote
02-28-2011 3:10 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
The middle class gets enormous amounts of money via the tax code that the poor cannot obtain, mortgage interest deductions being among the biggest.
Most of the poor are working poor, laboring away at jobs (often more than one) that their employers feel need not pay a living wage because there are always more poor people desperate enough to take them.
The ruling class allows the poor in America to pay little or no taxes because the alternative would eventually topple their oligarchy.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Coyote, posted 02-28-2011 3:10 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by xongsmith, posted 02-28-2011 7:46 PM Omnivorous has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 280 of 350 (606852)
02-28-2011 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 2:54 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Phage writes:
If you are going to accuse them of obtaining it dishonestly you have to make your case.
"Dishonestly" is perhaps the wrong word. Whether by luck or judgement the stratospherically wealthy successfully played the system we have in place. The system where significant wealth itself breeds more wealth. A system that results in a runaway concentration of wealth and a system where this is rather controversially deemed to have been "earned" despite no effort on the part of the beneficiary.
But the system we have in place isn't immutable is it? If the system we have is flawed and results in outcomes which were never intended - such as extreme concentrations of wealth where 1% of the population own 40% of the wealth - why shouldn't we tinker with the system to rectify that situation somewhat?
The sort of changes being proposed here as far as I am aware consist of little more than the stratospherically wealthy contributing a bit more to the system that made them that wealthy in the first place.
This is hardly a red revolution and I am not really sure what your objection is exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 2:54 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 4:53 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 350 (606857)
02-28-2011 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Straggler
02-28-2011 4:31 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
The system where significant wealth itself breeds more wealth.
Lets start over on the basics. Consider the statement:
"Wealth can be applied to enhance productivity."
Do you agree with this statement?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 4:31 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:18 PM Phage0070 has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 282 of 350 (606867)
02-28-2011 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 4:53 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Phage writes:
"Wealth can be applied to enhance productivity."
Whose productivity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 4:53 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 6:31 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 350 (606869)
02-28-2011 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Straggler
02-28-2011 6:18 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
Phage writes:
"Wealth can be applied to enhance productivity."
Whose productivity?
Either the productivity of the person who owns the wealth, or those allowed to use the wealth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:18 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:38 PM Phage0070 has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 284 of 350 (606872)
02-28-2011 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Phage0070
02-28-2011 6:31 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Does the productivity of the workforce come into it at all? Are they included in your "those who use the wealth"?
Surely ultimately it is the ability of those actually doing the producing whose abilities have been enhanced with new equipment or whatever. No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 6:31 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Phage0070, posted 02-28-2011 6:45 PM Straggler has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 350 (606874)
02-28-2011 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Straggler
02-28-2011 6:38 PM


Re: inequality widens, gets worse for the workers
Straggler writes:
Does the productivity of the workforce come into it at all? Are they included in your "those who use the wealth"?
Yes, the "workforce" are people who use the wealth.
So, do you agree the wealth can be used to enhance productivity of people who use it? (this is like pulling teeth)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:38 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2011 6:48 PM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 341 by crashfrog, posted 03-03-2011 12:59 PM Phage0070 has replied

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