Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,799 Year: 4,056/9,624 Month: 927/974 Week: 254/286 Day: 15/46 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Symphony by accident
Percy
Member
Posts: 22494
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 16 of 23 (605697)
02-21-2011 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by slevesque
02-21-2011 3:22 PM


slevesque writes:
Population genetics gives us a maximum on fixation by selection, since selection involves killing/inhibiting reproduction of individuals. So it can only select for so much in a given generation, all the rest is hope to genetic drift.
The effect of genetic drift is a strong function of population size. For instance, see this paper where they calculate the fixation rate for examples of neutral and advantageous alleles: http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gavrila/583/C5.pdf. It concludes:
In large populations, selection will overwhelm drift once the advantageous allele is at all common.
You next say:
And if genetic drift has such on a strong effect on the fixation of mutations, wouldn't one be justified to question if such an amount of randomness can still account for the evolution of complex structures?
I think you must be operating under the impression that advantageous mutations that do not reach fixation are somehow lost, which is definitely not the case. It also appears possible that you think fixation is some kind of holy grail for alleles, and that alleles that do not attain fixation do not have a significant impact on a population, also definitely not the case.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 4:14 PM Percy has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 17 of 23 (605700)
02-21-2011 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by slevesque
02-21-2011 3:14 PM


slevesque writes:
Yes, but the force of the filter must be proportionally as strong as the quantity of randomness flooding in.
Mutation produces the variation. However, it is biological reproduction that pumps that variation into the filter. There's lots of force in that "pumping".

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 3:14 PM slevesque has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 18 of 23 (605702)
02-21-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Adequate
02-21-2011 3:17 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
All sorts of bizarre accidents like that have been happening to me lately.
Indeed, the evidence from quantum physics is that everything is accidental in the Bolder-dash sense of "accident."

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-21-2011 3:17 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4667 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 19 of 23 (605703)
02-21-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
02-21-2011 3:54 PM


I think you must be operating under the impression that advantageous mutations that do not reach fixation are somehow lost, which is definitely not the case. It also appears possible that you think fixation is some kind of holy grail for alleles, and that alleles that do not attain fixation do not have a significant impact on a population, also definitely not the case.
No, but when discussing evolution, fixation is quite important. After all, we compare the fixed mutations between species to extrapolate common ancestors.
In the long run, only the fixed mutations will have a permanent impact. Temporary impacts from mutations that come and go through drift isn't relevant.
A population, or sub-population, evolves through fixation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 02-21-2011 3:54 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 02-21-2011 8:36 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22494
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 20 of 23 (605737)
02-21-2011 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by slevesque
02-21-2011 4:14 PM


slevesque writes:
No, but when discussing evolution, fixation is quite important. After all, we compare the fixed mutations between species to extrapolate common ancestors.
Wherever did you get such a strange idea? Ultimately every allele in a population's genome arose through mutation. Which alleles will you deem mutations and which not, since they're all ultimately mutations. And how would you ever identify which mutations were fixated (which means a gene with only a single allele) without sampling every individual of a population?
In the long run, only the fixed mutations will have a permanent impact. Temporary impacts from mutations that come and go through drift isn't relevant.
Two sentences, two misunderstandings.
First, fixated alleles do not have a permanent impact as they are as vulnerable to mutations as any other allele.
Second, non-fixated alleles do not have temporary impacts. Huge numbers of significant and influential alleles are not fixated.
Like I said before, you seem to be thinking of fixation as some kind of pinnacle of achievement for an allele, and that a gene can have no significant role if it isn't fixated. This is not true.
What is most important for the survival of species is variation. I bet the endangered Florida panther, which is well known for its lack of genetic diversity, has a much higher incidence of fixated alleles than non-endangered species. Fixation is only a good thing if you look at things from the allele's point of view. But it's the survival of the species that is of overwhelming importance, not the survival of alleles, and species survival depends upon variation, not fixation.
A population, or sub-population, evolves through fixation.
Uh, no.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 4:14 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 23 (605741)
02-21-2011 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by slevesque
02-21-2011 3:47 PM


I hear you, but your changing the goalpost. My remark was concerning Nwr's OP, which in turn was in reply to Bolder-dash's statement that evolution as a whole is a random process.
And specifically the eye. If he'd confined himself to saying that quantitatively with respect to DNA the majority of evolution was random he'd have been telling the truth and so doing nothing to further God's Glorious Cause Of Creationism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 3:47 PM slevesque has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10075
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 22 of 23 (605842)
02-22-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by slevesque
02-21-2011 3:22 PM


And if genetic drift has such on a strong effect on the fixation of mutations, wouldn't one be justified to question if such an amount of randomness can still account for the evolution of complex structures ?
Ahh yes, the ol' switcheroo. You are conflating neutral drift with positive selection. That is quite dishonest of you.
Beneficial mutations, such as those leading to modern vision systems, do not fix through random drift. They are selected for. Mutations that change a species fitness do not follow random drift.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 02-22-2011 6:13 PM Taq has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 23 of 23 (605909)
02-22-2011 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taq
02-22-2011 12:31 PM


Taq writes:
You are conflating neutral drift with positive selection. That is quite dishonest confused of you.
I fixed it for you.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 02-22-2011 12:31 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024