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Author Topic:   Moving towards an ID mechanism.
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 10 of 141 (261807)
11-21-2005 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
11-21-2005 3:52 AM


Re: how do you respond to Wheeler?
Why not just go the whole hog and claim that intelligence can influence the collapse of the quantum eigenstate in order to select specific states.
That is surely the entire basis of any claim that QM behaviour provides a rationale for a mechanism of ID?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by randman, posted 11-21-2005 3:52 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Brad McFall, posted 11-21-2005 7:08 AM Wounded King has replied
 Message 20 by randman, posted 11-21-2005 4:05 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 13 of 141 (261870)
11-21-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
11-21-2005 10:02 AM


Re: how do you respond to Wheeler?
That is the sort of thing that the researchers at PEAR (Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research) claim they are able to detect.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Larni, posted 11-21-2005 10:02 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Larni, posted 11-21-2005 10:28 AM Wounded King has replied
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 16 of 141 (261885)
11-21-2005 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brad McFall
11-21-2005 7:08 AM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
This sounds like the idea that DNA molecules and DNA synthesising proteins can function as quantum computers and search through the vast probability space of possible conformations for particular solutions.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Brad McFall, posted 11-21-2005 7:08 AM Brad McFall has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 17 of 141 (261888)
11-21-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Larni
11-21-2005 10:28 AM


Re: how do you respond to Wheeler?
From some of their material...
Despite the small scale of the observed consciousness-related anomalies, they could be functionally devastating to many types of contemporary information processing systems, especially those relying on random reference signals. Such concern could apply to aircraft cockpits and ICBM silos;
I suspect that they are either garnering funding from, or angling for funding from, the sort of military research funds that pumped so much cash in to remote viewing.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 31 of 141 (262119)
11-21-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
11-21-2005 4:05 PM


Re: how do you respond to Wheeler?
So who's asking the questions?
He has a system for explaining what we observe. In other words, right or wrong, it works.
This just sounds like yet another framework for interpreting quantum formalism. Any one of them might be right or wrong but since they are all different interperative forms of the quantum formalism they all 'work'. Many worlds 'works', the transactional interpretation 'works', the copenhagen interpretation 'works'. How does this differ from the many interpretations of the quantum formalism.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 33 of 141 (262133)
11-21-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by randman
11-21-2005 5:32 PM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
It has been put forward (McFadden and Al-Khalili, 1999).
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by randman, posted 11-21-2005 5:32 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 108 by randman, posted 12-04-2005 4:04 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 69 of 141 (264184)
11-29-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by randman
11-29-2005 3:58 PM


Re: where's the beef?
How do approaches to ToE contain or suggest theories of a deeper reality?
In this instance I suspect TOE stands for 'theory of everything'.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 68 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 3:58 PM randman has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 109 of 141 (265518)
12-04-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by randman
12-04-2005 4:04 PM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
I would say there is a definite contribution. The level of chemical interaction occuring is clearly at a level where QM influences may be operating at least transiently. I don't think you can seperate quantum and classical mechanics in this way. One is merely the result we perceive, at our gross level of perception, of the operation of the other.
The problem is whether any superposition could last for long without running into problems of decoherence. The cell is a very chemically dense environment and the number of potential interactions are vast.
All mutation is going to involve events at a quantum level, how can anything not? At the same time this doesn't effectively change our approach as QM is a probabilistic framework and our general understanding of mutation is likewise probabilistic. It may be that certain environments constrain the probability space of mutational events as the parrallel mirrors in the casimir effect constrain the range of virtual particles possible between them, but at the moment this is essentially pure speculation and in itself offers no more scope for intervention than would be offered by an organism being moved to a new environment.
The interface between QM and biology is so newborn that it will be some time before reliable conclusions can be drawn.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 110 of 141 (265525)
12-04-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Wounded King
12-04-2005 5:49 PM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
A recent paper has suggested that the ratio of hydrogen to deuterium could have influenced the rate of spontaneous mutation on Earth (Pedersen , et al., 2005). They support this with QM calculations for reductions in zero point energy with deuterium substituting for hydrogen , and previously reported experimental work showing D2O can affect the stability of double stranded DNA.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 112 of 141 (265649)
12-05-2005 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by randman
12-04-2005 10:32 PM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
Its hard enough detecting entanglement in photon pairs in highly controlled labs, doing so in a cell is going to be hugely problematic. It would be interesting, but it is a considerable leap beyond the current level of integration of QM and molecular biology.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by randman, posted 12-04-2005 10:32 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 114 of 141 (265704)
12-05-2005 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by randman
12-05-2005 9:04 AM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
I'm sure they would expect them to exist at least transiently, but that hardly argues for them having a significant role in the process of mutation.
Any references for physicists putting forward such a model?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 9:04 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 9:41 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 116 of 141 (265735)
12-05-2005 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by randman
12-05-2005 9:41 AM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
Vedral's homepage doesn't give any indication of work in this area. His work on macroscopic effects of entanglement certainly might be applicable to biological molecules, but at the moment they seem to require rather restrictive environments i.e. very low temperatures.
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 05-Dec-2005 04:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 9:41 AM randman has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 120 of 141 (265760)
12-05-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by randman
12-05-2005 11:28 AM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
Well since you haven't let any of the rest of us in on what his suggestions are I can't really comment.
Are any of these interviews available online?
The closest I can find in his published works is this...
might it be not only that quantum effects are responsible for the behaviour of inanimate matter, but that the magic of entanglement is also crucial in the existence of life4?
Which is pretty speculative, and certainly not original. The reference he gives is to a 1964 letter to Nature called 'Does quantum mechanics exclude life' by P.T. Landsberg, sadly I can't get to access to this paper as yet.
There is also a large leap between a role for entanglement in the chemistry of life and a significant role in the non-random nature of certain mutations.
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 05-Dec-2005 04:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 123 of 141 (265999)
12-06-2005 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by randman
12-05-2005 11:53 PM


Re: information
This is hardly moving towards an ID mechanism, it seems more to be moving towards navel gazing.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 122 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 11:53 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 11:12 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 128 of 141 (266061)
12-06-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by randman
12-06-2005 11:12 AM


Re: information
Wheeler suggests the responses and thus the information set we see in the universe is also the result of the questions we ask of it, and that the universe contains an observer participancy phenomenon. So that makes it less likely that the universe we will experience is set in stone, meaning space-time is fixed.
I don't see how that follows, the information set we see doesn't have to be the set of all relevant information. If one accepts that then the questions we ask only affect the answers we get, not the actual state of reality beyond the inside of our heads.
But down this path lies the question of whether we can actually choose the questions we ask and the issue of free will.
Can you see your navel yet?
If you had an actual basis for a mechanism rather than just some loose ideas from that most spooky and outre realm of hard science that is quantum physics, then there might be something that could actually be discussed.
As it is you seem to have simply been drawn into an argument over whether you even understand what Wheeler is saying. I don't know if you understand 'It from Bit' or not, but you have given only the vaguest of thoughts as to how it might lead to a basis for a mechanism for ID.
Your thoughts don't seem much developed from the 'Intelligence affects the collapse of the eigenstate' that I suggested on the first page of this thread. Although in your case presumably it requires a special class of intelligence which is not readily available for testing.
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 06-Dec-2005 05:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
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