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Author Topic:   Help me understand Intelligent Design (part 2)
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 61 of 173 (263828)
11-28-2005 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
11-27-2005 5:45 PM


Re: Most Faith
Science may be based on observations, but that doesn't mean evolutionary theories are not based on faith. There is a great deal of faith involved if you ask me to believe in evolution. You have to believe that life can stem from inanimate life first of all, spontaneous generation, and then you have to believe that out of that, all of the complexity and information needed to create the designs we call life could do so via things we have never observed basically. We have never observed mutations being selected for and producing macro-evolution. You have to have faith that what we have observed can add up to macro-evolution. It's very much a faith-stance, not built upon direct observation.
Let me turn this around. Many people claimed to have seen the Risen Lord Jesus Christ. So Christianity was built upon an observed phenomenon, but since we cannot demand Jesus come back and appear at will, it is a faith perspective to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Usually, this entails some sort of encounter with God that helps cement that faith in the believer. So that faith is borne out of experience as well as a historical event.
But it's still faith-based.
Evolution (macroevolution) is not observed. One has faith that the few areas observed such as natural selection can add up to universal common descent, but it takes faith just as it takes faith for the believer to add up the historical accounts of the Risen Jesus with their personal encounters with God, and then believe Jesus really did rise from the dead.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 77 of 173 (265733)
12-05-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by AdminNosy
12-05-2005 11:00 AM


Re: Focus on the Topic Please
I am sure Golfer can respond for himself, but it seems to me he was focussing on the evidence for ID.
Nuggin, ID is not a religious theory, simply that Toe's missing links is the scientific evidence that validates ID. The scientists that have or are turning to ID realize the missing transitional fossils only supports the ID premise.
If missing transitionals were not missing, then Toe would be validated. ID being not a religious theory but based on sound scientific evidence has no reason to go to the age of the fossil because the missing links would still be missing.
The fossil record simply does not lie. To an ID scientist the only missing link not missing is Intelligent Design.
The evolutionist sees the fossil record and says there must be vast gaps within the fossil record since ToE must be true. The IDer sees the fossil record as inconsistent with ToE, but very consistent and strong evidence for ID.
What's the problem? The data is the fossil record, and there is clearly an argument being made that it backs ID.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 81 of 173 (265926)
12-06-2005 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by NosyNed
12-06-2005 12:00 AM


Re: fossils and ID
The IDers here on this forum have made these claims based on evidence in the fossil record, which is why I stuck up for The Golfer when you claimed he was not citing evidence for ID.
Now, I can't say I am as well-read on all of the IDers as perhaps you are, but seems to me they have used the fossil argument to state it does not support evolutionary models.
I suppose we could scan the Discovery Institute or some place like that. You really think we wouldn't find this argument there?

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 Message 80 by NosyNed, posted 12-06-2005 12:00 AM NosyNed has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 84 of 173 (265930)
12-06-2005 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by NosyNed
12-06-2005 12:26 AM


Re: What is ID?
Darwin didn't understand genetics, nor did evos for a long time, and have imo way overblown the randomness claims, but you aren't saying it wasn't science.
You can read some a peer-reviewed paper's comments here:
The “Cambrian explosion” refers to the geologically sudden appearance of many new animal body plans about 530 million years ago. At this time, at least nineteen, and perhaps as many as thirty-five phyla of forty total (Meyer et al. 2003), made their first appearance on earth within a narrow five- to ten-million-year window of geologic time (Bowring et al. 1993, 1998a:1, 1998b:40; Kerr 1993; Monastersky 1993; Aris-Brosou & Yang 2003). Many new subphyla, between 32 and 48 of 56 total (Meyer et al. 2003), and classes of animals also arose at this time with representatives of these new higher taxa manifesting significant morphological innovations. The Cambrian explosion thus marked a major episode of morphogenesis in which many new and disparate organismal forms arose in a geologically brief period of time.
To say that the fauna of the Cambrian period appeared in a geologically sudden manner also implies the absence of clear transitional intermediate forms connecting Cambrian animals with simpler pre-Cambrian forms. And, indeed, in almost all cases, the Cambrian animals have no clear morphological antecedents in earlier Vendian or Precambrian fauna (Miklos 1993, Erwin et al. 1997:132, Steiner & Reitner 2001, Conway Morris 2003b:510, Valentine et al. 2003:519-520). Further, several recent discoveries and analyses suggest that these morphological gaps may not be merely an artifact of incomplete sampling of the fossil record (Foote 1997, Foote et al. 1999, Benton & Ayala 2003, Meyer et al. 2003), suggesting that the fossil record is at least approximately reliable (Conway Morris 2003b:505).
As a result, debate now exists about the extent to which this pattern of evidence comports with a strictly monophyletic view of evolution (Conway Morris 1998a, 2003a, 2003b:510; Willmer 1990, 2003). Further, among those who accept a monophyletic view of the history of life, debate exists about whether to privilege fossil or molecular data and analyses. Those who think the fossil data provide a more reliable picture of the origin of the Metazoan tend to think these animals arose relatively quickly--that the Cambrian explosion had a “short fuse.” (Conway Morris 2003b:505-506, Valentine & Jablonski 2003). Some (Wray et al. 1996), but not all (Ayala et al. 1998), who think that molecular phylogenies establish reliable divergence times from pre-Cambrian ancestors think that the Cambrian animals evolved over a very long period of time--that the Cambrian explosion had a “long fuse.” This review will not address these questions of historical pattern. Instead, it will analyze whether the neo-Darwinian process of mutation and selection, or other processes of evolutionary change, can generate the form and information necessary to produce the animals that arise in the Cambrian. This analysis will, for the most part, 2 therefore, not depend upon assumptions of either a long or short fuse for the Cambrian explosion, or upon a monophyletic or polyphyletic view of the early history of life.
(edit to adjust format of long url - AdminNWR)
www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id...
This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 12-05-2005 11:46 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 85 of 173 (265931)
12-06-2005 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by pink sasquatch
12-06-2005 12:30 AM


Re: Discovery Institute problems
I guess you have a problem reading then.
ww.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view...
In any case, regarding the "substance" of Golfer's original point: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Uh, this would be funny if I thought you would get it. IDers are not the ones arguing that evidence they don't have exists, nor that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. That's just a bunch of evo spin doctoring. No, IDer are just looking at the actual evidence,the totality of it, and instead of trying to warp the evidence to fit some preconceived model, they are building a theory based on actual evidence.
The fossil record in toto fits ID, and does not fit ToE. Sudden appearance and stasis are widespread and prevalent features of the fossil record. Unfortunately for you guys, evolution is not.
(adjusted long url format - AdminNWR)
This message has been edited by randman, 12-06-2005 12:35 AM
This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 12-05-2005 11:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-06-2005 12:30 AM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 87 of 173 (265962)
12-06-2005 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by pink sasquatch
12-06-2005 12:53 AM


Re: Discovery Institute problems
Tell you what. I have already discussed this in prior threads. Why don't you do some searching under whale evolution and fossils, and maybe sometime later, we can do a great debate discussing the fossil record in toto or more narrowly, the issue of predicted fossils by ToE and ID theories, and we can discuss creationist predictions as a sideline.
sound good?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 89 of 173 (265967)
12-06-2005 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by pink sasquatch
12-06-2005 1:59 AM


Re: Discovery Institute problems
I have posted pages and pages on it already. Maybe you should take some time to read them. But I can understand if you don't want to debate one-on-one. It's not for everyone.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 95 of 173 (266153)
12-06-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by johnfolton
12-06-2005 6:25 PM


Re: ID is the Missing Link
But Golfer, now Flew is a village idiot, old man,senile, etc, etc,...
Evos kind of flip out when they lose someone from the group.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-06-2005 06:30 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 96 of 173 (266156)
12-06-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by pink sasquatch
12-06-2005 1:59 AM


Re: Discovery Institute problems
If you aren't interested in even briefly explaining how ID theory predicts/is confirmed by the fossil record, then you shouldn't be making such a strong assertion in a science forum.
Golfer's comments do fine.
The scientific evidence for ID is simply in agreement with the Paleontologist massive fossil evidences. There is no reason for the scientist to go to the age of the fossil. Transitionals would of supported Toe, instead the lack thereof "only" supports ID.
Scientists have been hoaxed with frauds of a few fossils, it will take massive transitional fossils to derail ID. Scientists care about what is (not what is not)

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 98 of 173 (266166)
12-06-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by pink sasquatch
12-06-2005 6:43 PM


Re: Discovery Institute problems
lack of transitionals
sudden appearance
stasis (opposite of evolution)
etc, etc,...

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 110 of 173 (266677)
12-08-2005 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by nwr
12-07-2005 12:56 AM


Re: ID is the Missing Link
The evidence for ID is the same as for evolution. It's a matter of which fits the data better. The fossil record does not agree with evolution. It does agree with ID.
Nuff said!

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 156 of 173 (271869)
12-22-2005 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Nuggin
12-22-2005 1:51 AM


Re: ID is the Missing Link
From everything I've seen, ID is based on the lack of evidence.
Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. The evidence for ID is all the same data used for evolution. The difference is the data does not fit evolutionary models, but fits ID.
The fossil record is a good example. The fossil record's qualities are things like sudden appearance and stasis; the exact opposite of what ToE predicts. The fossil record is not replete with transitional forms, and perhaps shows none at all. Evos claim a few here and there, but they are more or less based on imagination. The actual transitions are not shown.
Think of it like this. I am an artist, and you can see in my work progressions or stages from some sort of art to another, but the works themselves stand alone and do not evolve one to another. Microevolution is observed, but the fossil record does not show the transitions between major taxa and very few, if any, transitions at all. The record more resembles what you would expect from an artist, or an Intelligent Designer.
But, as it stands, all I'm hearing is that ID is supported by this idea that certain fossils (like Archie for example) don't exist.
The problem is that if evolutionary models are true, you should have tens of thousands of archies, and you do not. The evidence just isn't there, and the paltry few so-called transitionals are so few in number, that there is really no reason to infer they were transitional at all. There just is no good record of evolution taking place in the fossil record. Just isn't there.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 158 of 173 (271908)
12-23-2005 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by robinrohan
12-22-2005 11:49 PM


emotionalism
emotionalism among evos, not fact-based and incapable of logical defense

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 161 of 173 (272014)
12-23-2005 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Nuggin
12-23-2005 12:28 PM


Re: ID is the Missing Link
Wrong. We can determine design forensically even if we cannot yet determine the method. Darwin did not understand the method of genetics, but his theory was still accepted. The fact evos did not claim Darwinism was bogus because it was incomplete not explaining the method shows you guys have double standards.
But on the topic of method or mechanism, I am putting forward some of the theories and principles surrounding quantum mechanics as a potential mechanism, specifically, we know that physical things actually exist as a superpositional potential, an information/energy state, and what we think of and measure as physical is a by-product of this information state. In other words, we see things "poofing into existence" all the time since virtually everything stems from this quantum state.
What causes physical reality as we experience it is an ID mechanism whereby an information state, a potential, collapses or forms into physical reality. We see a constant process of moving from an inherent design into physical form, all the time. That's what quantum physics shows, this deeper, more fundamental reality containing the design (the information) interacting to cause a more limited manifestation of form we experience as the physical or material world. Aspects of the deeper reality, the superpositional state, we cannot measure, but we can take measurements that show it exists since the measurements or even the potential for measurement (delayed-choice experiments) cause one state or another to form out of the superpositional state.
That's Intelligent Design, and it's basic to all material existence.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 163 of 173 (272050)
12-23-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Nuggin
12-23-2005 1:39 PM


Re: ID is the Missing Link
Darwin understood heredity, which is all that's needed to express ToE. Can you go into more detail about DNA and gene mapping, yes. Do you have to? No.
Actually, you are completely wrong and basically ignorant of the history of evolutionary theory. Darwin did not understand heredity, but held to a sort of semi-Lamarkaniasm of acquiring traits through one's life, which most reject now. That's one reason he felt natural selection and survival of the fittest was such a strong argument.
He was though dead wrong, and as such, genetics is a major weakening of Darwinism. Genetics shows new traits can only be acquired via mutations, not experience, or that is the current theory. That makes evolutionary models more difficult because mutations must be neutral or beneficial and they must be sufficient potential within the genome to mutate altogether new traits somewhat forever, from day one with the first organism, that apparently evolved from things that never had genes in the first place.
It makes evolutionary theory much more difficult. In fact, had we discovered genetics first, I suspect Darwin's ideas would not be held in such high esteem today, but by the time genetics came along, ToE was a dominant paradigm and so all new data was squeexed to fit evo models. Take away the evo assumptions though, and whole new vistas appear.
Fact is Darwin was wrong on heredity.

This message is a reply to:
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