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Author Topic:   Supernatural and undiscovered means of detection
Taz
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 47 (609459)
03-20-2011 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
03-20-2011 11:20 AM


ringo writes:

A library allows for new books to be brought in but they aren't really a "part of" the library until we can predict where they will fit into the cataloging system.


And in no way am I saying science should accept the existence of ghosts or the supernatural. What I am saying is that just because something hasn't been catalogued into the library doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Continuing with your book analogy, think of all those books that existed over the centuries that never got catalogued and possibly lost for ever.

Skepticism isn't about saying no to everything. That's republicanism, not skepticism. Scientific skepticism isn't about sitting on your high horse passing judgement whether something exists or not and labeling things "supernatural" if you don't like it. The standards are much higher than that.

I'm not saying you can't just use the logic "supernatural doesn't exist, ghosts are supernatural, therefore ghosts don't exist". Just don't pretend like you're speaking for the scientific community or the skeptics. Call it modernism or post-modernism or whatever. I don't care.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 03-20-2011 11:20 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 03-20-2011 3:24 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13017
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 17 of 47 (609469)
03-20-2011 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taz
03-20-2011 2:22 PM


Taz writes:

What I am saying is that just because something hasn't been catalogued into the library doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Until a book is cataloged and shelved, it doesn't exist as part of the circulating collection. You have to make predictions about its contents and confirm those predictions before you can fit it into the rest of the collection.

Ghosts don't exist as part of our body of scientific knowledge until they can be fitted into the general framework.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15922
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 18 of 47 (609552)
03-21-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
03-18-2011 9:47 AM


He claims there is proof ghosts exist and such.

His argument is that we just have not invented the means to detect them.

These two claims seem inconsistent. If we can prove they exist then we can detect them.

He claims the EVP(electronic voice phenomena" is hard evidence of ghosts.

"Hard" is an exaggeration. Hearing words in EVP is like seeing faces in clouds.

And if it is real, why should it be evidence of ghosts in particular? Maybe it's people from the future trying to perfect their transtime communicator ... or bits of the cosmos spontaneously becoming conscious through [make up something involving the word "quantum" and insert here] ... or leakage from a parallel universe ... or Carl Sagan's invisible dragon trying to let us know that it does exist after all ... or the same race of mischievous pixies that puts all those pictures in clouds. Just because for some reason believers in ghosts are particularly interested in listening to this aural goop doesn't mean that it is particularly likely to be in fact produced by ghosts.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 19 of 47 (609590)
03-21-2011 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taz
03-20-2011 2:44 AM


Ok, let me get this straight. Are you saying that anything that has never been previously predicted by mainstream science cannot possibly exist?

Not at all. Your argument seems to be that we should find things that are outside of the scientific method. I am saying that using the scientific method we have found no evidence of the supernatural. EVP, ghostly photos, and all other means of "ghost" detection ahve not stood up to scientific inquiry. When something does I then will consider the possibility, until then I have no reason to have a belief in ghosts. Why would it have to be ghosts?

The belief in ghosts is like the belief in creation science. People that believe in both take the existence of both as a fact then try to shoehorn the evidence to fit. Why is it ghosts? How about aliens, sprites, gnomes. leprechauns or any other supernatural entity?

Show me any existing scientific knowledge that shows that anything supernatural exists.

(1) If we truly follow this statement of yours, science would never make any progress whatsoever. One of the strongest basis of science is that it allows for things we haven't thought of or haven't discovered yet to exist.

Non sequitor. Can you show me any evidence of the suprnatural or not?

(2) It seems to be a popular thing nowadays to label something as supernatural or label someone as a conspiracy theorist in order to discredit them.

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying ghosts would not be supernatural?

(3) Do you have anything to say at all beside "it's supernatural, therefore it must not exist"? Do you see the problem here? First, you assume that anything that is supernatural must not exist. Then you assume that ghosts are supernatural. Do you see a problem with your conclusion here?

I did not say that. I said that until there is evidence there is no reason to even consider. Show me some evidence for ghosts and I will consider the concept.

You, sir, are the reason why so many people misunderstand science and it's skeptical nature.

Science should rely on evidence. I am skeptical until there is evidence. If there is no evidence I am not willing to consider a belief in the supernatural.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 03-20-2011 2:44 AM Taz has responded

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 Message 21 by Taz, posted 03-21-2011 9:13 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6409
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 20 of 47 (609613)
03-21-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
03-19-2011 12:40 AM


Speaking as a skeptic, I have to accept the possibility of the existence of ghosts.

However, we can both accept the possibility of ghosts while pointing to the lack of evidence for the reality of ghosts. Skepticism deals with claims made about reality, not possibility.

The point is just because something wasn't predicted by conventional science doesn't mean it can't exist.

The lack of prediction does not evidence that something is real, either. Positive claims require positive evidence. Until such evidence is given there is no reason to accept something as real. This is NOT the same as rejecting the idea outright.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 03-19-2011 12:40 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 03-21-2011 9:16 PM Taq has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 21 of 47 (609643)
03-21-2011 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Theodoric
03-21-2011 2:58 PM


Theodoric writes:

Not at all. Your argument seems to be that we should find things that are outside of the scientific method.


I have said no such thing. I'm beginning to feel like I'm in the twilight zone here. Either I deny completely the possibility of the existence of ghosts without a second thought or I believe fully in ghosts?

EVP, ghostly photos, and all other means of "ghost" detection ahve not stood up to scientific inquiry. When something does I then will consider the possibility, until then I have no reason to have a belief in ghosts. Why would it have to be ghosts?

This does not sound at all what the OP said. And my responses have so far been to the OP.

Non sequitor. Can you show me any evidence of the suprnatural or not?

But that's not my point, is it? I'm saying the OP made a conclusion out of 2 assumptions.

I did not say that. I said that until there is evidence there is no reason to even consider. Show me some evidence for ghosts and I will consider the concept.

Again, this sounds nothing like the OP.

Science should rely on evidence. I am skeptical until there is evidence. If there is no evidence I am not willing to consider a belief in the supernatural.

Again, this sounds nothing like the OP.

Just because I am being skeptical of the skeptics doesn't mean I believe in fairy tales. I've only been merely pointing out that if you're going to discuss about ghosts or other nonsense at least don't help propagate the misconception that skeptics say no to everything.

For decades, James Randi have tried to explain this to people, that skeptics don't just say no to everything. What skeptics do is insist on examining the evidence before making any decision.

The OP made it clear that since ghosts aren't predicted by science then therefore they can't possibly exist. This is about the worst way at approaching this issue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Theodoric, posted 03-21-2011 2:58 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 03-21-2011 10:09 PM Taz has not yet responded
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 03-21-2011 10:37 PM Taz has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 22 of 47 (609645)
03-21-2011 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taq
03-21-2011 5:07 PM


Taq writes:

The lack of prediction does not evidence that something is real, either.


You know, for years we (the evilutionists) have been accusing the creationists at consistently using logical fallacies. You do realize that you just committed one of the most commonly used fallacies by creationists, yes? You know, the one that goes "either... or..."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Taq, posted 03-21-2011 5:07 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13017
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 23 of 47 (609650)
03-21-2011 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taz
03-21-2011 9:13 PM


Taz writes:

The OP made it clear that since ghosts aren't predicted by science then therefore they can't possibly exist.


I don't see anything in the OP that remotely resembles that.

Edited by ringo, : Speling.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Taz, posted 03-21-2011 9:13 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 24 of 47 (609654)
03-21-2011 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taz
03-21-2011 9:13 PM


Try reading the OP
It seems you haven't even read the OP.

Try reading it then try producing a post that actually deals with it.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Taz, posted 03-21-2011 9:13 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Taz, posted 03-22-2011 1:28 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 25 of 47 (609661)
03-22-2011 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Theodoric
03-21-2011 10:37 PM


Re: Try reading the OP
I know the op didn't specifically say that. But it did specifically imply it.

quote:
I have tried to explain that a basic difference here is that quarks are something that science predicted and then were later explained in a more concrete manner. For ghosts there are no scientific predictions.

It's pretty clear to me. You're trying to disprove your friend by saying there are no scientific predictions. And it's clear from later posts that you're trying to conclude they don't exist.

Again, in no way am I saying ghosts exist. What I am saying is that by saying such thing to your friend you're only propagating the misconception that skeptics say no to everything. Please understand that as a skeptic I have to deal with this misconception everyday.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 03-21-2011 10:37 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by Taq, posted 03-22-2011 11:41 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 26 of 47 (609679)
03-22-2011 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taz
03-22-2011 1:28 AM


Re: Try reading the OP
Ghosts are a concept with no scientific predictions or evidence. Correct?

The concept exists without any evidence. The concept of quarks exists with evidence.

Are you agreeing with my friend that we just may have not found a means of detection that will prove ghosts exist?

What I am saying is that by saying such thing to your friend you're only propagating the misconception that skeptics say no to everything.

In no way am I saying that. I am saying that unless there is evidence there is no need to believe or consider.

Someone once said that one should not be so open minded that their brain falls out.

I think you are making lots of assumptions of me and the OP. Just because you infer something does not mean that it was implied.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Taz, posted 03-22-2011 1:28 AM Taz has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6409
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 27 of 47 (609690)
03-22-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
03-21-2011 9:16 PM


Let's unravel this, shall we?

In a previous post you wrote:

"The point is just because something wasn't predicted by conventional science doesn't mean it can't exist."

Fair enough. I responded that not being predicted does not make it real either. You still need to show that something exists in order to conclude that it exists. Simply saying that something could be real, even if not predicted by current theories, does not make it real.

What fallacy am I committing here?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 03-21-2011 9:16 PM Taz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by 1.61803, posted 03-22-2011 4:52 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6409
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 28 of 47 (609692)
03-22-2011 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taz
03-22-2011 1:28 AM


Re: Try reading the OP
You're trying to disprove your friend by saying there are no scientific predictions.

The problem is that no evidence would disprove the existence of ghosts due to the fact that no predictions can be made about the phenomenon. No matter what happens someone will still say "'But ghosts could still be real".


This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2678
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 29 of 47 (609727)
03-22-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taq
03-22-2011 11:36 AM


tag writes:

What fallacy am I committing here?


Confusion of the inverse.
Because science does not predict X, therefore X could exist.
X exist because science does not predict X does not exist.

*add* I agree there would be a millionaire somewhere if they could show evidence that verified the existance of the supernatural at Dr. Randi site.

Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 03-22-2011 11:36 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Taq, posted 03-22-2011 5:04 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6409
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 30 of 47 (609728)
03-22-2011 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by 1.61803
03-22-2011 4:52 PM


Confusion of the inverse.
Because science does not predict X, therefore X could exist.
X exist because science does not predict X does not exist.

That is not my argument. Taz originally stated, "The point is just because something wasn't predicted by conventional science doesn't mean it can't exist." I added the additional statement that a lack of a prediction does not mean it necessarily exists, either. I went on to say that positive claims require positive evidence to further clarify my statement. IOW, I was pointing out that ignorance neither confirms nor disconfirms the existence of something.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by 1.61803, posted 03-22-2011 4:52 PM 1.61803 has responded

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