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Author Topic:   Supernatural and undiscovered means of detection
1.61803
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Posts: 2672
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 31 of 47 (609729)
03-22-2011 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Taq
03-22-2011 5:04 PM


Oh.. well I agree. I think it comes down how logical it is to believe something. If there is evidence then it is logical to believe it exist. If there is no evidence then it is still logical to believe it could exist. However given the extreme circumstance of the claim ...ie extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I, as many here am skeptical. I have never seen a ghost, nor has anyone I know, and all evidence I have seen or heard has been debunked. Hence I do not believe ghost exist. Einstien or Newton would of found a way to make contact by now. Having said that I never said that ghost "cant " exist. Just unlikely. imo
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GDR
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Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 32 of 47 (609737)
03-22-2011 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
03-18-2011 9:47 AM


Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
The November cover of "Scientific American" headlined the lead story in the that edition.

The headline was: HIDDEN WORLDS OF DARK MATTER - An Entire Universe may be Interwoven Silently With Our Own".

IF this is true, then there is a whole universe out there that currently we are unable to perceive. Could that be construed as a supernatural universe?


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PaulK
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Posts: 12554
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 33 of 47 (609741)
03-22-2011 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
03-22-2011 6:38 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
Short answer. No.

Slightly longer answer. Don't be silly.

Or, to explain in more detail, dark matter would just be a previously unknown part of nature. It's physical (it's within the subject matter of physics) and material (it has mass - that's how we know it's there). There doesn't seem to be any good reason to label it supernatural at all.


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GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 34 of 47 (609755)
03-22-2011 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by PaulK
03-22-2011 6:55 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
Mirriam-Webster's

Definition of SUPERNATURAL
1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

It does fit the bill for the first part of the definition in that it is talking about something beyond the "visible observable universe". To go beyond that we are definitely into the speculative.


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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 35 of 47 (609790)
03-23-2011 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
03-19-2011 12:40 AM


"Accept the possibility" is too strong, IMO, as it says that one is considering it. But there's no reason to consider it. Building from the evidence, there is no such thing. So, properly, the concept should be ignored so one does not inadvertently force the pattern to fit random phenomena.
If ghosts were to appear, defined by the evidence, then you have something. But until then it's a dangerous concept to the belief-forming structure because ghosts are disconnected from reality by definition. It is too filled with gaps in which the viewer might leak parts of himself into what he is viewing.

Accepting the possibility of ghosts is like seriously considering whether a big sky daddy burnt a representation of a Renaissance depiction of an itinerant preacher who some claim claimed to be the son of the big sky daddy into a tortilla.


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PaulK
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Posts: 12554
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 36 of 47 (609794)
03-23-2011 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
03-22-2011 8:39 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
quote:

It does fit the bill for the first part of the definition in that it is talking about something beyond the "visible observable universe". To go beyond that we are definitely into the speculative

The article you are quoting says merely that it is a part of the visible universe that is not visible to us (and it is detectable in principle, so it is not absolutely invisible). Dark matter is HERE, not in some unspecified "elsewhere" beyond the visible universe. So your argument requires a strained reading of even your hand-picked (and not very good) definition. A reading that would be widely rejected because it is clearly absurd.

All I can say is that if supernaturalists are reduced to such dictionary games, trying to claim that natural entities are supernatural to bolster their beliefs then supernaturalism is clearly irrational.


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Theodoric
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Posts: 5744
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 37 of 47 (609800)
03-23-2011 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
03-22-2011 8:39 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
GDR writes:

Mirriam-Webster's

Definition of SUPERNATURAL
1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

It does fit the bill for the first part of the definition in that it is talking about something beyond the "visible observable universe". To go beyond that we are definitely into the speculative.

I guess you can stretch visible and observable to mean anything if you think dark matter falls under supernatural


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Taq
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Member Rating: 3.8


Message 38 of 47 (609819)
03-23-2011 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
03-22-2011 6:38 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
IF this is true, then there is a whole universe out there that currently we are unable to perceive. Could that be construed as a supernatural universe?

So where do we draw the line? EM waves outside of the visible range can not be directly observed, so is your radio collecting signals from the supernatural? Is an x-ray image supernatural?

If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws.


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GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 39 of 47 (609826)
03-23-2011 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
03-23-2011 11:40 AM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
Taq writes:

If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws.

Here are some of the other statements in the magazine about the article.

quote:
A shadow cosmos in our midst may be as dynamic as the visible one.

quote:
Through the force of gravity, dark matter sculpts the universe into a web of galaxies. Theorists now suspect that it may exert other forces as well.

quote:
A shadow cosmos, woven silently into our own, may have its own rich inner life.

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Theodoric
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Posts: 5744
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 40 of 47 (609838)
03-23-2011 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by GDR
03-23-2011 1:55 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
GDR writes:

Taq writes:

If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws.

Here are some of the other statements in the magazine about the article.

quote:
A shadow cosmos in our midst may be as dynamic as the visible one.

quote:
Through the force of gravity, dark matter sculpts the universe into a web of galaxies. Theorists now suspect that it may exert other forces as well.

quote:
A shadow cosmos, woven silently into our own, may have its own rich inner life.

And what pray tell do any of these statements you quote have to do with anything. Maybe you should try explaining the point you are trying to make.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 41 of 47 (609846)
03-23-2011 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Theodoric
03-23-2011 4:56 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
Theodoric writes:

And what pray tell do any of these statements you quote have to do with anything. Maybe you should try explaining the point you are trying to make.

Good question and I wish I had a really good answer.

The OP more or less asked the question if we had arguments pro or con the supernatural. I found the article in SA interesting and it seems to me that what they are talking about in that article might be considered supernatural. The whole article of course was theoretical and proves nothing but it does provide a point of view.

I'm not trying to make any particular claim.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5744
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 42 of 47 (609848)
03-23-2011 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by GDR
03-23-2011 6:02 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
they are talking about in that article might be considered supernatural.

How you get to supernatural from that article is a heck of a stretch. If that qualifies as supernatural, so do radio waves, xrays and anything else not visible to the human eye.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 565 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 43 of 47 (609854)
03-23-2011 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
03-23-2011 11:40 AM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
So where do we draw the line? EM waves outside of the visible range can not be directly observed, so is your radio collecting signals from the supernatural? Is an x-ray image supernatural?

If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws.

I suggest that everything identified as "supernatural" is simply an example of phenomenon we (or at least the observer) are not immediately able to explain.

There is an instinct in human beings that, when presented with a mysterious problem that cannot easily be solved, suggests that the problem is unsolvable, partitioning off the segment of reality in question as somehow "separate" or "above" the natural laws that govern the rest of reality.

Personally, I find such a notion to be absurd; identifying a phenomenon as "supernatural" effectively says that the problem of ignorance rests with reality rather than our understanding of it.

Ignorance is a problem of human knowledge; our ignorance means that we are flawed, not reality.

Worshiping a "supernatural" phenomenon really just means worshiping one's own ignorance rather than investigating to find out what's really going on and fix the flaw in your own understanding.

That's why religion typically has an issue with science, and why the God of the Gaps continues to get smaller. The investigation of mysterious phenomenon has historically served to transform the "supernatural" into the natural, as we come to understand things we were previously ignorant of. Those who cherish belief in the "supernatural," those who find grace and fulfillment and wonder in their own ignorance, push back when, say, the Theory of Evolution solidly proves Biblical Creationism to be wrong as a matter of simple fact.


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pfrankinstein
Junior Member (Idle past 1825 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 03-12-2011


Message 44 of 47 (609874)
03-23-2011 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Rahvin
03-23-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
Rahvin

I suggest that everything identified as "supernatural" is simply an example of phenomenon we (or at least the observer) are not immediately able to explain.

Therein lies the rub.

The moment we discover how the feat above nature is performed then it no longer is perceived as being supernatural.

Fat end of the wedge example:

If a man can reach a destination faster than he can run on his own two legs, can it be said that he has journeyed, time travelled by supernatural means?

Paul.

Edited by pfrankinstein, : No reason given.


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pfrankinstein
Junior Member (Idle past 1825 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 03-12-2011


Message 45 of 47 (609876)
03-23-2011 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by pfrankinstein
03-23-2011 11:38 PM


Re: Is This Where the Supernatural Is?
Theory of Evolution solidly proves Biblical Creationism to be wrong as a matter of simple fact.

Sadly 'evolution' does not answer the question of first cause.

Also. There is mention of a tree of life in the bible, Darwin encapsulated his theory with a 'tree of life' metaphor.

Paul.


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