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Author Topic:   Monetary Tsunami In America!!
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 121 (610954)
04-03-2011 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jon
04-03-2011 9:30 PM


Re: Is there no need for concern?
The maps I linked to were about exports and imports: what is bought and sold and from whom to whom.
We're not talking about "imports and exports", we're talking about national domestic aggregate demand.
Note the spike and drop when laid over the demand trend in your silly little graphs.
I don't see where you've laid anything over any of the graphs I've presented. Could you be more specific?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 04-03-2011 9:30 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 04-04-2011 1:42 PM crashfrog has replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4719 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


(1)
Message 47 of 121 (610966)
04-04-2011 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by crashfrog
04-03-2011 8:31 PM


Re: The Inflation Scam
Crashfrog,
Your graphs are deceptive. I suspect that this graph is based on the common economic principle that says inflation is an increase in the average price of commodities (is that right?). Lots of major economists teach this.
But the other side of the story is that many major economists define inflation as an increase in the aggregate money supply. These economists define then as the root cause of inflation the printing of money, or perhaps an increase in the percentage of money printing (because naturally, for the value of the dollar to remain constant, more must be printed to keep up with population growth). Some say an increase in prices and an increase in the money supply are synonymous. Not necessarily.
Printed money is not necessarily invested in the U.S. economy. Some of the money can be used to prop up dictators in foreign countries, such as Mubarak of Egypt. Or it can be invested in an attempt to knock them down, as in the case of Gaddafi of Libya. Its all political. We decided at some point that we like Mubarak (even though he is no less tyrannical than Gaddafi) and we hate Gaddafi. The solution is neutrality, but that is another subject for another thread.
Or the money could be used to build squirrel bridges (about this, I am not kidding). Or it could be used to study the effects of marijuana on men living in Turkey. Or $10,000 worth of it could be used to put up one sign informing passers-by that stimulus money is being used to improve a runway. Yes, $10,000 for one sign.
Spending money like this won't show up in the price of goods immediately. It just wastes wealth by investing it in useless places. Which economy do you think will do better? The one investing in squirrel bridges, or the one investing in the establishment of justice? The source of our economic theory is not in John Maynard Keynes, or even in Ludwig von Mises. It is in God.

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD. (I Cor. 1:21,27-31)
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36) ~ Sola Deo Gloria

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 04-03-2011 8:31 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2011 10:11 AM sac51495 has not replied
 Message 56 by frako, posted 04-04-2011 1:16 PM sac51495 has not replied
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 04-04-2011 2:11 PM sac51495 has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 121 (610970)
04-04-2011 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by sac51495
04-04-2011 6:41 AM


Re: The Inflation Scam
sac51495 writes:
Crashfrog,
Your graphs are deceptive. I suspect that this graph is based on the common economic principle that says inflation is an increase in the average price of commodities (is that right?). Lots of major economists teach this.
But the other side of the story is that many major economists define inflation as an increase in the aggregate money supply. These economists define then as the root cause of inflation the printing of money, or perhaps an increase in the percentage of money printing (because naturally, for the value of the dollar to remain constant, more must be printed to keep up with population growth). Some say an increase in prices and an increase in the money supply are synonymous. Not necessarily.
Printed money is not necessarily invested in the U.S. economy. Some of the money can be used to prop up dictators in foreign countries, such as Mubarak of Egypt. Or it can be invested in an attempt to knock them down, as in the case of Gaddafi of Libya. Its all political. We decided at some point that we like Mubarak (even though he is no less tyrannical than Gaddafi) and we hate Gaddafi. The solution is neutrality, but that is another subject for another thread.
Or the money could be used to build squirrel bridges (about this, I am not kidding). Or it could be used to study the effects of marijuana on men living in Turkey. Or $10,000 worth of it could be used to put up one sign informing passers-by that stimulus money is being used to improve a runway. Yes, $10,000 for one sign.
Spending money like this won't show up in the price of goods immediately. It just wastes wealth by investing it in useless places. Which economy do you think will do better? The one investing in squirrel bridges, or the one investing in the establishment of justice? The source of our economic theory is not in John Maynard Keynes, or even in Ludwig von Mises. It is in God.
Hi Sac. Good points. Not to mention the up to ten billion which might need to be printed for loans allocated to Brazil's Petrobros (heavily invested in by Obama's bud, George Soros) to drill oil off Brazil's shore and perhaps in the gulf etc all the while forbidding drilling by our own oil companies in the gulf and in Alaska, etc.
Soros sold his common shares of Petrobros and bought the higher dividend paying preferred shares.
Not to mention the funding of leftist organizations like Public Radio, Planned Parenthood, rehashed Acorn organizations, perk bridges to nowhere projects favoring labor unions etc.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by sac51495, posted 04-04-2011 6:41 AM sac51495 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by subbie, posted 04-04-2011 10:22 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 50 by jar, posted 04-04-2011 10:31 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 49 of 121 (610971)
04-04-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
04-04-2011 10:11 AM


Re: The Inflation Scam
Not to mention the funding of leftist organizations like Public Radio, Planned Parenthood, rehashed Acorn organizations, perk bridges to nowhere projects favoring labor unions etc.
Don't forget, he also eats babies, kills kittens and hates all true 'Merikans.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2011 10:11 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 121 (610972)
04-04-2011 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Buzsaw
04-04-2011 10:11 AM


Re: The Inflation Scam
Buzsaw writes:
Not to mention the funding of leftist organizations like Public Radio, Planned Parenthood, rehashed Acorn organizations, perk bridges to nowhere projects favoring labor unions etc.
I'm sorry but once again, do you have any evidence to support your assertions or are these as baseless and worthless as all the other claims you've made?
Can you explain how Planned Parenthood could possible be a leftest organization or are you just once again making unfounded and false statements?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2011 10:11 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2011 1:11 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 121 (610973)
04-04-2011 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
04-03-2011 5:00 PM


crashfrog writes:
It seems to me that the only way the US is going to get any kind of a handle on its debt is to raise interest rates and create an economic climate where inflation runs rampant.
The only way the US is going to get a handle on its debts is when the economy starts growing again, and the national debt becomes less and less of a fraction of GDP.
The only way out of debt for a government is to grow its way out. You can't model a nation's economy as a function of kitchen table finances.
The only other problem is overpopulation. Too many people are coming in that are not fully educated and who do nothing more than stress our natural resources and our ability to earn a decent living.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 04-03-2011 5:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 04-04-2011 11:06 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 04-04-2011 11:35 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 04-04-2011 2:17 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 66 by Rahvin, posted 04-04-2011 2:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 121 (610974)
04-04-2011 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
04-04-2011 10:46 AM


Phat writes:
crashfrog writes:
It seems to me that the only way the US is going to get any kind of a handle on its debt is to raise interest rates and create an economic climate where inflation runs rampant.
The only way the US is going to get a handle on its debts is when the economy starts growing again, and the national debt becomes less and less of a fraction of GDP.
The only way out of debt for a government is to grow its way out. You can't model a nation's economy as a function of kitchen table finances.
The only other problem is overpopulation. Too many people are coming in that are not fully educated and who do nothing more than stress our natural resources and our ability to earn a decent living.
HUH?
How about all of the very well educated that come in?
How do they stress our natural resources and our ability to earn a decent living?
Do they not pay taxes?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 04-04-2011 10:46 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 53 of 121 (610975)
04-04-2011 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
04-04-2011 10:46 AM


Phat writes:
Too many people are coming in that are not fully educated and who do nothing more than stress our natural resources and our ability to earn a decent living.
The migrant workers and the illegals come because there's a demand for their labour. If you want to compete with them, you have to make those jobs more attractive to American workers - e.g. by paying decent wages and benefits.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 04-04-2011 10:46 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2011 1:14 PM ringo has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 121 (610980)
04-04-2011 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
04-04-2011 10:31 AM


Re: Planned Parenthood
jar writes:
Can you explain how Planned Parenthood could possible be a leftest organization or are you just once again making unfounded and false statements?
Their leftist pro-death abortion big business is a starter. If you want to go further, you'll need to do a thread on it. Count me out. It's a no brainer, needing no debate which most conservatives and liberals alike understand.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 04-04-2011 10:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 04-04-2011 1:29 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 58 by subbie, posted 04-04-2011 1:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 121 (610981)
04-04-2011 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
04-04-2011 11:35 AM


ringo writes:
Phat writes:
Too many people are coming in that are not fully educated and who do nothing more than stress our natural resources and our ability to earn a decent living.
The migrant workers and the illegals come because there's a demand for their labour. If you want to compete with them, you have to make those jobs more attractive to American workers - e.g. by paying decent wages and benefits.
Or to outlaw the jobs they do, obliging the companies, under penalty of law, to hire legals only.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 04-04-2011 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 04-04-2011 2:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 64 by DrJones*, posted 04-04-2011 2:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 56 of 121 (610982)
04-04-2011 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by sac51495
04-04-2011 6:41 AM


Re: The Inflation Scam
These economists define then as the root cause of inflation the printing of money, or perhaps an increase in the percentage of money printing
lets say there isonly 10 000 $ in existence 10 000 people each with the same amount of money and 10 000 loafs of bread in this case a loaf of bread costs 1 dollar.
If you print 10 000 $ more you would have 20 000 $ and 10 000 loafs of bread if the bread prices would stay the same 10 000 $ could not be spent on anything being unless because the supply and demand remained the same there is only more money in circulation the loafs of bread jump to a price of 2 dollars.
On the other hand if you dont print any additionyl money and all you have is the 10 000$ but the production of loafs of bread plumit to only 5000 loafs of bread the same thing happenes 5000 $ are useless, the demand stayed the same but the suply plumited so the price of bread jumped up (to at least) 2$ in reality in this scenario the prices would go up far more because you could not live whitout bread and the shop would use that to earn big bucks.
3d scenario 10 000 $ 10 000 loafs of bread but half of the people died the rice of bread would plumit because 5 000 loafs would be useless
its not just the printing of money that effects inflation/deflation lots of factors do.
Normally an inflation of around 2.5 % is considered a good thing higher inflations cause problems for everybody deflation on short term is good for the workers on long term it fucks everybody

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by sac51495, posted 04-04-2011 6:41 AM sac51495 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 121 (610985)
04-04-2011 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
04-04-2011 1:11 PM


Re: Planned Parenthood
Buzsaw writes:
jar writes:
Can you explain how Planned Parenthood could possible be a leftest organization or are you just once again making unfounded and false statements?
Their leftist pro-death abortion big business is a starter. If you want to go further, you'll need to do a thread on it. Count me out. It's a no brainer, needing no debate which most conservatives and liberals alike understand.
I'm sorry but "leftist pro-death abortion big business"?
You have some support for that or is this just another example of your making false and unsupported assertions and then running away like a lying coward?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2011 1:11 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 58 of 121 (610989)
04-04-2011 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
04-04-2011 1:11 PM


Re: Planned Parenthood
It's a no brainer,
Which of course explains your position on it.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2011 1:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 121 (610990)
04-04-2011 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by crashfrog
04-03-2011 9:37 PM


Re: Is there no need for concern?
We're not talking about "imports and exports", we're talking about national domestic aggregate demand.
We're talking about demand for American goods; that demand is lower than before.
As the one map shows; there's plenty of money to spend. But no one wants to buy the made in America shit. American goods must be made more valuable; that happens on the production/selling end, not the consumer/buying end.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 04-03-2011 9:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 04-04-2011 2:19 PM Jon has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 60 of 121 (610993)
04-04-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by sac51495
04-04-2011 6:41 AM


Re: The Inflation Scam
Your graphs are deceptive.
Could you elaborate? Which graphs are "deceptive", and in what way? Please be specific since you're accusing me of dishonesty and violating the forum guidelines.
But the other side of the story is that many major economists define inflation as an increase in the aggregate money supply.
Many economists may believe that an increase in the aggregate money supply (with no commensurate increase in the aggregate product) may cause inflation, but no economist defines "inflation" itself as anything but an increase in price levels.
If you gave every US citizen $1000, but legally obligated them to bury it in their backyard instead of spending or saving it, that would certainly be an increase in aggregate money but there isn't an economist in the word who would describe that as "inflation", because price levels wouldn't increase at all.
Printed money is not necessarily invested in the U.S. economy.
That is quite correct, hence the "drop it from helicopters onto American citizens" aspect of my plan. It's a two-step plan, you see:
1) Print money;
2) Drop it from helicopters onto US citizens so they can spend it.
Try to keep both steps in mind, in your replies to me in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by sac51495, posted 04-04-2011 6:41 AM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by sac51495, posted 04-04-2011 3:27 PM crashfrog has replied

  
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