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Author Topic:   Why only one Designer
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 346 of 377 (614629)
05-05-2011 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by ringo
05-05-2011 11:27 AM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
ringo writes:

Jon has answered your strawman accusation pretty well.

You think so huh? Because Jon has concluded - "that the number of the Universe designer(s) should also be comparable to human designers"

So if you agree with Jon so much answer me this - How many humans would it take to design our universe?

ringo writes:

IDists are making that comparison.

No comparison is made with humans by IDists beyond the possession of intelligence. Any further extrapolation is yours and not theirs.

ringo writes:

If there's anything else to their claims beyond that comparison, go ahead and present it.

The core premise of ID (flawed as it is) is that some aspects of nature are too complex to have arisen without the aid of intelligent intervention. How you go from that to concluding that "that the number of the Universe designer(s) should also be comparable to human designers" remains a mystery.

But as I have said previously if that is your premise then apparently psychologists have concluded that between 4 and 12 is the optimum number for a human design team.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by ringo, posted 05-05-2011 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by ringo, posted 05-05-2011 2:19 PM Straggler has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13435
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 347 of 377 (614632)
05-05-2011 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Straggler
05-05-2011 2:06 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
Straggler writes:

The core premise of ID (flawed as it is) is that some aspects of nature are too complex to have arisen without the aid of intelligent intervention. How you go from that to concluding that "that the number of the Universe designer(s) should also be comparable to human designers" remains a mystery.


It appears to be a mystery only to you.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Straggler, posted 05-05-2011 2:06 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 10:23 AM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 348 of 377 (614667)
05-05-2011 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Straggler
05-05-2011 1:45 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
I'm not sure further explanations are going to help you understand. Sorry.

Jon


Love your enemies!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Straggler, posted 05-05-2011 1:45 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 10:27 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 349 of 377 (614694)
05-06-2011 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by SavageD
04-29-2011 10:28 PM


Re: Evidence for an Only Designer
Since our only reference point for design is the design that we (humans) perform, the link between common components and a single designer is not present.

When we design an automobile it consists of a large number of interacting systems, each of which has a separate design team, and yet each of which use common technologies.

When we design a aeroplane -- the technologies are the same as automotive technoloigies, and yet the design teams are different and numerous.

In short, designs can be interpreted as a hierarchy of increasing complexity -- each layer upwards being based upon the units underneath.

In the same way that one can consider Physics to underpin Chemistry which underpins Biology. There are 'new' features at each level, despite being based upon a common set of 'rules' under-the-hood.

So is there any other evidence that there is a single designer?

Also, is there actually anything in ID theory(?) that precludes mulitple designers -- or in fact makes any comment on the number of designers necessary?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by SavageD, posted 04-29-2011 10:28 PM SavageD has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2011 10:00 AM Peter has acknowledged this reply

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 350 of 377 (614734)
05-06-2011 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by ringo
05-05-2011 2:19 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
JOn writes:

It appears to be a mystery only to you.

Well that is one way of avoiding the question.

Do you agree with Jon's conclusion that "the number of the Universe designer(s) should also be comparable to human designers". or not?

If you do agree with Jon then tell me - How many humans would it take to design our universe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by ringo, posted 05-05-2011 2:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 10:48 AM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 351 of 377 (614736)
05-06-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Jon
05-05-2011 6:10 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
If you and Ringo want to create straw man versions of ID I can't stop you. But I can point out where you are adding in your own assumptions and extrapolations when doing so.

We don't need to make straw men versions of ID. It has enough real flaws without you (or the OP) inventing them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Jon, posted 05-05-2011 6:10 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13435
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 352 of 377 (614742)
05-06-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Straggler
05-06-2011 10:23 AM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
Straggler writes:

Do you agree with Jon's conclusion that "the number of the Universe designer(s) should also be comparable to human designers". or not?


As far as I know, that was my conclusion and Jon agreed with it.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 10:23 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 12:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 353 of 377 (614751)
05-06-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by ringo
05-06-2011 10:48 AM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
ringo writes:

Straggler writes:

Do you agree with Jon's conclusion that "the number of the Universe designer(s) should also be comparable to human designers". or not?

As far as I know, that was my conclusion and Jon agreed with it.

So how many humans do you think it would it take to design our universe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 12:17 PM Straggler has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13435
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 354 of 377 (614754)
05-06-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Straggler
05-06-2011 12:08 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
Straggler writes:

So how many humans do you think it would it take to design our universe?


By repeating that question, you're just beating on a strawman. Nobody has suggested that humans could design the universe. My position is that the IDists' reasoning breaks down at that point. Everybody seems to understand that but you.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 12:08 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 12:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 355 of 377 (614761)
05-06-2011 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by ringo
05-06-2011 12:17 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
ringo writes:

Nobody has suggested that humans could design the universe.

Exactly. So if humans are not comparable to the hypothetical designer(s) of the universe in terms of design capability why do you think they would be comparable in terms of numbers? Surely a rather key factor in determining the number of designers is the capability of the designers to design.

In short you cannot comment on the number of designer(s) without making assumptions about the capabilities of the designers.

IDists advocating a single designer are assuming that their designer is supremely capable. This assumption is flawed and unjustified but is at least internally logically consistent.

You on the other hand are advocating a comparison with beings that aren't even capable of designing the universe and coming to a conclusion about how many designers of the universe are required on that basis. This isn't even internally logically consistent.

When you find yourself arguing a position that is inferior to IDist arguments in terms of logical consistency it is frankly time to give up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 12:42 PM Straggler has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13435
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 356 of 377 (614766)
05-06-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Straggler
05-06-2011 12:38 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
Straggler writes:

So if humans are not comparable to the hypothetical designer(s) of the universe in terms of design capability why do you think they would be comparable in terms of numbers?


Asked and answered.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 12:38 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 12:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 357 of 377 (614770)
05-06-2011 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by ringo
05-06-2011 12:42 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
ringo writes:

Straggler writes:

So if humans are not comparable to the hypothetical designer(s) of the universe in terms of design capability why do you think they would be comparable in terms of numbers?

Asked and answered.

In the name of clarity could you explicitly restate your answer to this exact question?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 12:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 12:56 PM Straggler has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13435
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 358 of 377 (614776)
05-06-2011 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Straggler
05-06-2011 12:50 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
Straggler writes:

In the name of clarity could you explicitly restate your answer to this exact question?


Nobody else seems to be suffering from your lack of clarity. If you want repetition, reread the thread.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 12:50 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 1:09 PM ringo has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 359 of 377 (614784)
05-06-2011 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by ringo
05-06-2011 12:56 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
Straggler writes:

So if humans are not comparable to the hypothetical designer(s) of the universe in terms of design capability why do you think they would be comparable in terms of numbers?

Straggler writes:

In the name of clarity could you explicitly restate your answer to this exact question?

ringo writes:

Nobody else seems to be suffering from your lack of clarity. If you want repetition, reread the thread.

The entire thread is 350 odd posts long. Why can't you just succinctly and explicitly restate your answer to that specific question if you have answered it already

If anybody else can explicitly state the answer to this question I would be delighted to hear from them too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 12:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by ringo, posted 05-06-2011 1:17 PM Straggler has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13435
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 360 of 377 (614788)
05-06-2011 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Straggler
05-06-2011 1:09 PM


Re: How Many Humans Would It Take To Design Our Universe?
Straggler writes:

If anybody else can explicitly state the answer to this question I would be delighted to hear from them too.


Jon has done that.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 1:09 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2011 1:21 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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