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Author Topic:   Osama Bin Laden Gets What He Gives
Rahvin
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Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 9 of 98 (614170)
05-02-2011 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
05-02-2011 9:24 AM


Re: Let The Conspiracy Thories Begin
That picture has been confirmed as fake. I haven;t seen any officially released photographs of Osama's corpse, but I think we can rest assured that the real pictures will be of much better quality than that.
The conspiracy theories are bonkers. Yes, it is possible (though not particularly plausible) for Osama to have been killed long ago and for Obama to now take political credit. It's possible that Osama hasn;t even really been killed.
But faking or delaying reports of Osama's death until now is hardly optimal. If this were a real conspiracy, Obama would have waited until shortly before the election, to hit the peak of the political capital this is going to give him when he can use it the most.
That, on top of the usual arguments against any conspiracy theory - how many people would need to keep perfectly silent? How much evidence would need to be faked? Which scenario is more likely?
But then, that's why we don't trust conspiracy theories. Let the gullible, the idiots, the whackaloons believe whatever they want; they won;t be dissuaded by such things as evidence or logic anyway, so why bother paying further attention?
As for the actual facts of Osama's death...I'm extremely happy with teh way this went down. Obama chose to sit and wait on the intel for a long time to make absolutely certain that Osama would be there when the time came; he didn't use a Predator or a cruise missile or an airstrike, any of which could have:
1) destroyed the remains too severely for identification
2) destroyed any documents or other evidence that may assist in further disassembling the al Qaeda network
3) most importantly, would likely have caused noncombatant deaths, since the "compound" was in the middle of a residential area.
This could have easily been a repeat of the botched Iranian hostage rescue. It could have been another Black Hawk Down. The political risk, if this hadn't gone off without a hitch, was significant. Obama had the stones to order it anyway, and it paid off, big time.
I'm also happy about the choice for disposing of Osama's body: burial at sea in full accordance with Muslim traditions. All of the bullshit about "douse the body in pigs blood" or other disgusting suggestions would do nothing but demonstrate our own hatred. It;s the same exact kind of inhuman shit Americans complain about when Iraqi/Afghani insurgents desecrate the bodies of American soldiers and contractors. We do not at all need to sink to that level; we've lost mroe than enough moral high ground in the so-called "war on terror," thank you very much, I'd prefer if we didn't continue to antagonize entire religions for no particular reason. And of course, burial at sea means that there will be no grave site to become a shrine for like-minded individuals, nor for desecration by hooligans who get off on expressing their hatred. Good fucking decision.
Even though the timing was not optimal for getting him re-elected, this will still get Obama some major political capital. He's already getting congratulations from the likes of Bush and Cheney - the political far-right has no choice now but to admit that Obama did exactly what they would have wanted him to do.
Just like with his initial election with a Democrat-controlled Congress, I predict Obama will focus so hard on his theme of "unity" and "bipartisan cooperation" that he will accomplish absolutely none of major initiatives regarding the budget etc, despite what will certainly be massive gains at the polls. And somehow, despite my pessimism, I'll still wind up being disappointed even further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-02-2011 9:24 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


(1)
Message 12 of 98 (614184)
05-02-2011 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Briterican
05-02-2011 1:53 PM


Re: Grrrr @ the polarising nature of this issue
/agree
The Western world regularly disapproves (to put it mildly) of the sort of partying in the streets that we see in the media from Muslim nations when disasters befall the West, particularly America, like on 9/11.
Our current behavior upon the death of Osama bin Laden is eerily similar, and should make people think about their own actions, the perceptions of others, and what protesting Muslims might be feeling when they burn former President Bush in effigy, or set fire to an American flag.
Osama needed killing. There was no way he was going to basically be Cobra Commander and not either get shot, blown up, or captured and executed. It's okay to be happy when a mass murderer finally gets some justice.
But partying in the streets? Why not fire an AK-47 into the air and scream "God is great?" Burn a Saudi flag? A Pakistani one? Oh, I know - let's burn some Korans and some flags bearing the Muslim crescent! I bet we could make a straw effigy pretty easily and set it on fire too...
This should be a solemn time of reflection, and gladness not that a man is dead, but that the families of that man's victims can now have at least some measure of closure and justice, and that the man won't kill anyone else ever again.

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 Message 10 by Briterican, posted 05-02-2011 1:53 PM Briterican has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 24 of 98 (614199)
05-02-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Hyroglyphx
05-02-2011 4:01 PM


Re: So what does it mean?
If you seriously want that kind of foreign policy change, vote for Ron Paul.
Ron Paul is a libertarian Randroid. The staus quo would be better. Hell, Bush again would be better.
All improvements are changes, but not all changes are improvements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-02-2011 4:01 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-02-2011 4:19 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-02-2011 5:51 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 29 of 98 (614217)
05-02-2011 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hyroglyphx
05-02-2011 5:51 PM


Re: So what does it mean?
What the fuck ever. Paul is a fucking crank, his economic policies would drive the country into the ground.
I don;t have to support Obama to know that a vote for Paul is a vote for Ayn Rand.
I wont defend Obama against criticisms for drone warfare - I believe I commented in this very thread that I was happy that the Osama attack was done with Seals for the very fucking reason that no bystanders were hurt in a missile explosion. Obama's not the second fucking coming, and I've been disappointed by him around every corner - universal healthcare is a halfassed overcomplicated abortion set up to continue the failed experiment of private healthcare, and it's "better" than what we had before only in a few of the details - just as one example. Iraq and Afghanistan would be other examples - I don't approve of Obama there either.
But Ron motherfucking Paul?
I'd rather be disappointed in Obama, and voice my disapproval when I think he fucks up, than ever vote for an idiot who thinks Ayn Rand was so fucking smart he named his son after her! He thinks we should go back to the fucking gold standard for fucks sake! He wants to ABOLISH THE INCOME TAX!
You can find positions he has that I'll agree with, sure - you can do that with any politician. But I could never vote for a Randroid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-02-2011 5:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 77 of 98 (614678)
05-05-2011 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tram law
05-05-2011 7:35 PM


Re: Regarding Rhetoric, Emotions, Irony and Healing
Millions of Iraqis and Afghans are dead?
Yes. This is true as a matter of simple fact. It's the true cost of war, and shows exactly how disproportionate the American response was. A few thousand of our citizens were killed on 9/11, and that was a tragedy...which we compounded with two military invasions that cost hundreds of thousands to millions of civilian lives, threw two nations into chaos, and did nothing to actually stop terrorism, which still continues to occur.
The sickening thing, of course, is how few Americans even care that hundreds of thousands to millions of Iraqis and Afghans were killed as a direct result of the US military operations in those countries.
This is all Israel's fault?
No, and that's not at all what dronester said. Perhaps you should read more carefully:
quote:
So you think that the death/destruction policy that Israel uses towards Palestine has generally led to a peaceful resolution?
An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind Mahatma Gandhi
dronester was very clearly telling you that assassinating bin Laden, and in fact the general US policy of using military force to combat terrorism (as opposed to more appropriate police, intelligence, and occasional special forces actions) is basically identical to the doctrine Isreal has been using for years to do the same, with absolutely zero success. Military response does not curtail terrorism, it encourages more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tram law, posted 05-05-2011 7:35 PM Tram law has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Tram law, posted 05-05-2011 8:49 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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