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Author Topic:   If our sun is second or third generation, does this not conflict with Genesis ?
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 166 of 231 (720435)
02-23-2014 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Eliyahu
02-23-2014 6:47 AM


Re: Time is relative
I explained in message 151 what time is used for the first six days of the creation story.

Since you did not write message 151, I am going to presume you meant message 155 written in response to message 151. You consider that to be an explanation. But I find it to be full of made up science. It explains only what you believe and not anything real.

"So then the earth was not yet formed, had not yet been created."

Of course according to Genesis the earth had life on it, and there was day and night on the earth before the sun, moon, or stars even existed. Clearly the non-formed state of the earth was over by the end of day three. None of your mumbo jumbo about different times on the sun fixes that.

The ancient Jewish commentators said that those days were days of 24 hours, the six days as the days of our working week.
But, so they said, those six days contain all the secrets and ages of the universe.
The question arises: When those days only lasted 24 hours, then how could they contain all the secrets and ages of the universe?

Your question and your idea about 'secrets of the universe' being not containable in any number of days is not even Biblical. Forget the criticisms about your physics. You say essentially 'let's question God's power' and then finding it lacking let's make up some stuff.

It seems much more likely that Genesis was written by someone who simply wasn't present during the big bang or the creation of flora and fauna and who knew jack about what happened.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Eliyahu, posted 02-23-2014 6:47 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:44 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 167 of 231 (720452)
02-24-2014 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Eliyahu
02-23-2014 6:44 AM


Re: Mythology...
Ah, when you say something it is science, and when I say something it is not science.

And you think that is a serious argument in a discussion??

You say stuff that is clearly wrong. But when your errors are pointed out you don't respond. That's why the arguments are not serious. We cannot get you to do anything but reassert your conclusion regardless of the flaws in its underpinning.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Eliyahu, posted 02-23-2014 6:44 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:33 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 168 of 231 (720453)
02-24-2014 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
02-23-2014 9:37 AM


Re: Mythology...
Time flows at the same rate in all inertial reference frames. We may observe time flowing more slowly in other inertial reference frames that are in motion or are accelerating with respect to our own, but within those other reference frames time flows at the same rate as within our own.

While that's true, Eliyahu has suggested that those other places include extreme gravity wells, and the story for those things is quite different than for inertial frames. For gravitational dilation, both the observer at the top of the gravity and the one at the bottom agree that the latter's clock runs more slowly.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 02-23-2014 9:37 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 7:11 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 174 by herebedragons, posted 02-24-2014 7:49 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15625
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 169 of 231 (720460)
02-24-2014 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by NoNukes
02-24-2014 2:07 AM


Re: Mythology...
I could have phrased it better, but I included accelerating reference frames, which are the same as gravity wells. As you say, there's no mystery. Observers at opposite ends of a gravity well can make measurements that make clear whose time is flowing slower. An observer in an accelerating reference frame or in a gravity well would know that the Big Bang and the formation of the earth were not simultaneous events. As it happens, we live at the bottom of a gravity well and did not have any trouble figuring this out. Making the gravity well "extreme" doesn't change this.

Elihayu also hasn't seemed to have considered that if he were correct that the Big Bang and the formation of the earth were simultaneous, then everything that ever happened, including the cup of coffee he just finished, were also simultaneous with those events. Which obviously makes no sense. Well, obvious to us.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2014 2:07 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:32 AM Percy has responded
 Message 181 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2014 9:55 PM Percy has responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 170 of 231 (720465)
02-24-2014 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
02-23-2014 9:37 AM


Re: Mythology...
I said that I described actual views within science and that you're just making things up.

Bs'd

What is it that I make up according to you?

You are again having problems with simple English. The problem is that you're ignoring the rebuttals.

And so do you guys.

Time on earth was not always the same, the expanding universe slows down time, and in other places in the universe time flows with totally different speeds.

And this is what makes it evident that you don't understand relativity. Time flows at the same rate in all inertial reference frames. We may observe time flowing more slowly in other inertial reference frames that are in motion or are accelerating with respect to our own, but within those other reference frames time flows at the same rate as within our own.

Oh oh, and then you guys think that you are the sophisticated well educated and scientific ones, debating the religious hillbillies who think the earth is flat.

Time is affected by things like speed, gravitation, and space. (ever heard the term "space-time"?)

When two atomic clocks are set up, one a meter higher than the other one, then you can see that the top one runs faster than the bottom one, because a meter higher the gravitational field of the earth is less than a meter closer to earth, and therefore a meter higher time is less slowed down then a meter lower. These are absolute real differences in time.

An earthly clock, when brought to the sun, will slow down, and then every earth year he will tick away one year minus 67 seconds, because time there is slowed down by the bigger gravity of the sun.

Those are very real absolute time differences.

You *really* don't understand relativity. Even if you were 50 billion light years from here, your observations would still measure the Big Bang at 13.7 billion years ago.

There are litterally BILLIONS of places in the universe where time is so much slowed down, that a clock, if we would place one there, would tick away only six days in fifteen billion earth years. So if a clock were placed there after the big bang, it would say that only six days have passed by there since then.

Hubble's discovery of an expanding universe is more in line with the Bible only in that it says this universe had a beginning. That's about it.

And that is already an enormous stap toward the Bible.

You're welcome to believe that. As I explained before, science does not believe the heavens and earth were both created in the beginning,

Let's say that the term "in the beginning" is not one exact point in time.

and there is no certainty within science that the beginning of this universe was the beginning of existence. There is even speculation that there may be many universes - certainly the laws of physics permit it, and it falls naturally out of some forms of string theory.

Keep in mind the difference between science and speculation.

The only real science is emperically testible science. The rest is stamp collecting.

We have to learn again that science without contact with experiments is an enterprise which is likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjecture.
― Hannes Alfven, Nobel price winner in physics

A good example of the above is the evolution theory.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.



"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 02-23-2014 9:37 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:05 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 171 of 231 (720466)
02-24-2014 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Percy
02-24-2014 7:11 AM


Re: Mythology...
Elihayu also hasn't seemed to have considered that if he were correct that the Big Bang and the formation of the earth were simultaneous, then everything that ever happened, including the cup of coffee he just finished, were also simultaneous with those events. Which obviously makes no sense. Well, obvious to us.

Bs'd

??????????????????

Where do I say that the big bang and the creation of the earth were simultaneous events??



"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 7:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 9:03 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 172 of 231 (720467)
02-24-2014 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by NoNukes
02-24-2014 12:18 AM


Re: Mythology...
You say stuff that is clearly wrong.

Bs'd

Like what for instance?



"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2014 12:18 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 173 of 231 (720469)
02-24-2014 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by NoNukes
02-23-2014 12:21 PM


Re: Time is relative
Since you did not write message 151, I am going to presume you meant message 155 written in response to message 151.

Bs'd

That's the one.

You consider that to be an explanation. But I find it to be full of made up science.

Please tell me what part of the science is not correct.

It explains only what you believe and not anything real.

"So then the earth was not yet formed, had not yet been created."

Of course according to Genesis the earth had life on it, and there was day and night on the earth before the sun, moon, or stars even existed. Clearly the non-formed state of the earth was over by the end of day three. None of your mumbo jumbo about different times on the sun fixes that.

I'm not saying the earth didn't exist on day three, I'm saying that until the end of day six Genesis counts with cosmic standard time.

The ancient Jewish commentators said that those days were days of 24 hours, the six days as the days of our working week.
But, so they said, those six days contain all the secrets and ages of the universe.
The question arises: When those days only lasted 24 hours, then how could they contain all the secrets and ages of the universe?[q/s]

Your question and your idea about 'secrets of the universe' being not containable in any number of days is not even Biblical. Forget the criticisms about your physics. You say essentially 'let's question God's power' and then finding it lacking let's make up some stuff.

I bring ancient Jewish commentators.

Judaism has a lot more sources of information than only the Bible.

It seems much more likely that Genesis was written by someone who simply wasn't present during the big bang or the creation of flora and fauna and who knew jack about what happened.

Well, the chances of a human being present at the big bang are a kind of small, what?

But here is what a Jewish commentator wrote about the creation of the world:

"The first act of creation made something that was so thin that it had no substance. It was the only act of creation that ever happened, and compressed in that point in space was the whole universe just after its creation."

Sounds like the big bang to me.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.



"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2014 12:21 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:30 AM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 180 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2014 11:47 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1324
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 174 of 231 (720470)
02-24-2014 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by NoNukes
02-24-2014 2:07 AM


Re: Mythology...
I don't know much about relativity (actually closer to nothing than not much) so is Eliyahu right about this?

Eliyahu writes:

When two atomic clocks are set up, one a meter higher than the other one, then you can see that the top one runs faster than the bottom one, because a meter higher the gravitational field of the earth is less then a meter closer to earth, and therefore a meter higher time is less slowed down then a meter lower. These are absolute real differences in time.

It strikes me that if you had an atomic clock at 20oK it would run slower than an atomic clock at 300oK. But does time itself actually run slower or just the clock? Or is it merely our reference frame that is different when accelerating or under the influence of extreme gravity?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2014 2:07 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by JonF, posted 02-24-2014 8:25 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15625
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 175 of 231 (720472)
02-24-2014 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Eliyahu
02-24-2014 7:30 AM


Re: Mythology...
Eliyahu writes:

What is it that I make up according to you?

Most of what you say is made up. How about this from your Message 158:

Eliyahu in Message 158 writes:

Sure. And science also says that the universe doesn't exist.
...
The whole material world is a very persistant illusion.

Only the spiritual world exists.
...
What you experience as "reality", the physical world, that just doesn't exist.

It is all mental.

This is all just you making stuff up, or maybe they're your religious beliefs. It isn't anything science believes to be true.

You are again having problems with simple English. The problem is that you're ignoring the rebuttals.

And so do you guys.

"Oh, yeah? Well, so are you!" is your rebuttal to an accurate observation? Could you at least be original, or even accurate? Is it too much to ask?

Oh oh, and then you guys think that you are the sophisticated well educated and scientific ones, debating the religious hillbillies who think the earth is flat.

I'm apparently debating a religious hillbilly who thinks the Big Bang and the formation of the Earth were simultaneous events simply because his religious book tells him so. You can pretty much trust that people here understand relativity, you don't have to describe it for us.

What you haven't described, and can't since it isn't possible, is the manner in which the Big Bang and the Earth's formation were simultaneous events. It's impossible because the quarks making up the Earth were also in the Big Bang, and those quarks couldn't be in two different places at once. Or are you going to invoke quantum mechanics now?

There are litterally BILLIONS of places in the universe where time is so much slowed down, that a clock, if we would place one there, would tick away only six days in fifteen billion earth years. So if a clock were placed there after the big bang, it would say that only six days have passed by there since then.

I agree that in our universe there must be such a place. And there must be a place where the clock ticked 7 days. And another place where it ticked 8 days. And another where it ticked a single day. So what. What has any of this to do with simultaneity?

Let's say that the term "in the beginning" is not one exact point in time.

We can say that, but then this is just you making things up again.

If "in the beginning" is not "one exact point in time," then might it span, oh, I don't know, maybe 9.14 billion years, roughly the amount of time separating the Big Bang from the formation of the Earth?

Keep in mind the difference between science and speculation.

I've been describing both established science and scientific speculation, which hints at future directions in science, and clearly science is *not* coming more and more into line with the Bible. You're correct that science came into better agreement with the Bible about there being a beginning, but it did so out of evidence, and what we've learned and the evidence gathered since the 1930's has not brought science into any closer alignment with the Bible. In fact, most of what we've learned has made science less and less aligned with the Bible.

Even you understand this:

We have to learn again that science without contact with experiments is an enterprise which is likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjecture.
―Hannes Alfven

A good example of the above is the evolution theory.

Yet evolution is an accepted scientific theory that has experienced considerable development since the 1930's and is one of the key ways in which science has become less and less aligned with the Bible. Your argument that the Bible and science are coming into better and better alignment is ludicrous on its surface. Were there any truth to it there wouldn't even be a creation/evolution debate.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:30 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 11:21 PM Percy has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3535
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 176 of 231 (720473)
02-24-2014 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by herebedragons
02-24-2014 7:49 AM


Re: Mythology...
Yes, he's right. That's one reason why GPS satellite clocks are purposefully set to keep the wrong time on Earth so they will keep the right time in orbit. See also Project GREAT: General Relativity Einstein/Essen Anniversary Test: Clocks, Kids, and General Relativity on Mt Rainier.

Atomic clocks are internally and very precisely temperature controlled. If they were not they would indeed run differently than "proper time" (the time in your current reference frame)

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by herebedragons, posted 02-24-2014 7:49 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15625
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 177 of 231 (720474)
02-24-2014 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Eliyahu
02-24-2014 7:44 AM


Re: Time is relative
Eliyahu writes:

You consider that to be an explanation. But I find it to be full of made up science.

Please tell me what part of the science is not correct.

You just did this to me, now you're doing it to NoNukes. After someone makes a summary statement, what perverse part of your nature makes you request it all be presented to you again? Is your memory that short? Are you that confused?

I'm not saying the earth didn't exist on day three, I'm saying that until the end of day six Genesis counts with cosmic standard time.

Cosmic standard time? You mean like the scientific version of cosmic standard time? The one where the Big Bang happened at time 0 and the Earth formed at time 9.14 billion years?

I think I see one way that you're reasoning is leading you astray. This is from your Message 155:

Eliyahu in Message 155 writes:

In a black hole it will look as if the cosmic clock ticks with an enormously high frequency,...

Light falling into the gravity well of a black hole will experience the same slowing as everything else. An observer will not see "an enormously high frequency."

But here is what a Jewish commentator wrote about the creation of the world:

"The first act of creation made something that was so thin that it had no substance. It was the only act of creation that ever happened, and compressed in that point in space was the whole universe just after its creation."

Sounds like the big bang to me.

I can find this quote nowhere on the net - who said it?

Anyway, "in that point in space was the whole universe" does sound like the Big Bang, "it had no substance" not so much.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:44 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Theodoric, posted 02-24-2014 9:37 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 184 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 12:05 AM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15625
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 178 of 231 (720476)
02-24-2014 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Eliyahu
02-24-2014 7:32 AM


Re: Mythology...
Eliyahu writes:

Where do I say that the big bang and the creation of the earth were simultaneous events??

The Bible says that creation of the heavens and the Earth were simultaneous events:

The King James Bible writes:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

In another message you equivocated and said that "in the beginning" might not be a specific point in time, but in that case the first day spans 9.14 billion years. Grass was created on the third day, which means the next two days span about 4.5 billion years. Your days of Genesis seem to vary in length.

So, keeping in mind that light falling into a gravity well is slowed along with everything else, tell us again how your observations from the bottom of a gravity well correspond with Genesis.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:32 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 179 of 231 (720479)
02-24-2014 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Percy
02-24-2014 8:30 AM


Re: Time is relative
I can find this quote nowhere on the net - who said it?

I just spent an hour trying to track it down. There might be a translation of a translation issue here, but I did go through everything I have and what I could find online about commentaries dealing with creation. I could find nothing close to this. That being said there are lots and lots of Jewish commentaries about everything(if you ever spend time reading Jewish commentaries you will find it hard to believe they are all the same religion).

It will be interesting to get the original source so we can actually compare that to the translation we were given. Then again maybe eliyahu considers himself a Jewish commentator.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:30 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 180 of 231 (720496)
02-24-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Eliyahu
02-24-2014 7:44 AM


Re: Time is relative
NoNukes writes:

Of course according to Genesis the earth had life on it, and there was day and night on the earth before the sun, moon, or stars even existed. Clearly the non-formed state of the earth was over by the end of day three. None of your mumbo jumbo about different times on the sun fixes that.

I'm not saying the earth didn't exist on day three, I'm saying that until the end of day six Genesis counts with cosmic standard time.

So the earth did exist before the sun was created according to you and Genesis. Yet there were mornings and evenings even before day 3.

Just yelling out cosmic time may allow you to claim that there was some time compression, but it does not allow you to change the order of causally connected events. Relativity does not allow that.

Note that I'm not bothering with the dispute about the length of the six days. I'm taking issue with the events described as occurring in those days.

So you have yet to explain the 'morning and evening on earth, and in some cases on a void formless earth, without a sun.

Please tell me what part of the science is not correct.

Is it your position that I have not pointed out at least some of your errors? It is not as though posts disappear after you and I make them.

In the interest of getting a discussion started, why don't you describe the physics of a place that meets these requirements:

Eliyahu writes:

And if we are talking about black holes, with and ENORMOUS gravitational force, then less than six days have passed there since creation.
So there are plenty of places to be found in the universe where less then six days have passed by since creation.

So you know about plenty of black holes that were created at time close to creation and that still exist right now? Black holes created a week or two after creation could certainly not have this property.

I submit that this is something you made up.

And then you propose that the author of Genesis was writing about time viewed from such a place? Or is it that God operated from there?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:44 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
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