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Author Topic:   If our sun is second or third generation, does this not conflict with Genesis ?
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10065
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 181 of 231 (720528)
02-24-2014 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Percy
02-24-2014 7:11 AM


Re: Mythology...
Percy writes:

but I included accelerating reference frames, which are the same as gravity wells.

Correction noted. I seem to recall us having a prior discussion about this.

Elihayu also hasn't seemed to have considered that if he were correct that the Big Bang and the formation of the earth were simultaneous

I did not notice Elihayu insisting that they were created simultaneously. I'm not saying that he did not. But my own opinion is that requiring such a thing is a hyper (read 'hyper' as 'faux') literal, and unjustified interpretation. It seems unlikely that the words are saying anything about the order or coincidence of the creation of the universe and the earth. I don't think 'in the beginning' requires such strict timing. It is enough that those were allegedly among the very first things that happened.

Not that some folks are not capable of insisting on extreme interpretations. For example, A. Schlafly insists that when the Bible says that the centurion's servant was healed in 'that selfsame hour' after Jesus spoke we are presented with an example of instantaneous action at a distance that disproves general relativity.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : Four vs. for? I'm an idiot.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 7:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 11:14 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 182 of 231 (720530)
02-24-2014 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Percy
02-24-2014 8:05 AM


Re: Mythology...
Eliyahu in Message 158 writes:

Sure. And science also says that the universe doesn't exist.
...
The whole material world is a very persistant illusion.

Only the spiritual world exists.
...
What you experience as "reality", the physical world, that just doesn't exist.

It is all mental.

This is all just you making stuff up, or maybe they're your religious beliefs. It isn't anything science believes to be true.

Bs'd

Really? You force me to repeat myself. Here he comes again:

Oh oh, and then you guys think that you are the sophisticated well educated and scientific ones, debating the religious hillbillies who think the earth is flat.

And you don't even know the the universe doesn't exist?? I mean; it is not like that is a recent discovery or something, science discovered it almost a hundred years ago, and you don't know about it?

And then you want to lecture me on science?

I suggest you do some reading on the subject, and then come back.



"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:05 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-24-2014 11:55 PM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 9:10 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 02-25-2014 11:02 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 183 of 231 (720531)
02-24-2014 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Eliyahu
02-24-2014 11:21 PM


Re: Mythology...
I suggest you do some reading on the subject, and then come back.

Pot, meet kettle.

And you don't even know the the universe doesn't exist??

Dude... I'm totally here responding to your post.

And I'm in the Universe.

It exists, ya dingus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 11:21 PM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 12:08 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 184 of 231 (720532)
02-25-2014 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Percy
02-24-2014 8:30 AM


Re: Time is relative
Is your memory that short? Are you that confused?

Bs'd

Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure. It could be one, or the other. Or both of 'm. Or none of 'm.

Or both of 'm and something more. Or one of 'm and something more. Or the other one of 'm, and something more. Or none of 'm and something more. Or ... Well, the possibliities are endless. All I can say about it is: "Who am I to judge?"

I'm not saying the earth didn't exist on day three, I'm saying that until the end of day six Genesis counts with cosmic standard time.

Cosmic standard time? You mean like the scientific version of cosmic standard time? The one where the Big Bang happened at time 0 and the Earth formed at time 9.14 billion years?

That would be earth time.

I think I see one way that you're reasoning is leading you astray. This is from your Message 155:

Eliyahu in Message 155 writes:

In a black hole it will look as if the cosmic clock ticks with an enormously high frequency,...

Light falling into the gravity well of a black hole will experience the same slowing as everything else. An observer will not see "an enormously high frequency."

The enormous gravity will slow down time, not everything else.

But here is what a Jewish commentator wrote about the creation of the world:

"The first act of creation made something that was so thin that it had no substance. It was the only act of creation that ever happened, and compressed in that point in space was the whole universe just after its creation."

Sounds like the big bang to me.

I can find this quote nowhere on the net - who said it?

Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman in his commentary on the creation story in Genesis.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:30 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:11 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 9:55 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 185 of 231 (720533)
02-25-2014 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by New Cat's Eye
02-24-2014 11:55 PM


Re: Mythology...
Dude... I'm totally here responding to your post.

And I'm in the Universe.

It exists, ya dingus.

Bs'd

That's what Neo thought about the matrix....

We are living in a matrix, like Neo.

The difference is however, that Neo' s reality did exist, somewhere else. Our reality doesn't exist at all.
Our matrix is a lot deeper.

I'll explain this a bit. A while ago I was having the shabbat dinner in the house of a dutch friend here in the Judean desert. He is married to a russian woman who happens to have a university degree in physics, she is an engineer in physics. After talking to my friend a bit in dutch, I explained to her in Hebrew that I just told my friend that the very solid table from which we were eating, that if we would leave the room, close the door, and then nobody would observe the table, that that table then would go out of existence.

About this her only comment was: "That is correct."

So reality is a bit diffferent from what you always imagined.

Matter has no intrinsic existance.

Welcome to the Matrix!

.
.
.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-24-2014 11:55 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:12 AM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 189 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:34 AM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 196 by Son Goku, posted 02-25-2014 9:26 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 10:06 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 186 of 231 (720534)
02-25-2014 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 12:05 AM


Re: Time is relative
Is your memory that short? Are you that confused?

Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure. It could be one, or the other. Or both of 'm. Or none of 'm.

Or both of 'm and something more. Or one of 'm and something more. Or the other one of 'm, and something more. Or none of 'm and something more. Or ... Well, the possibliities are endless. All I can say about it is: "Who am I to judge?"

Are you trying to tell us that you are so mentally retarded that you don't even know what you can remember?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 12:05 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 187 of 231 (720535)
02-25-2014 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 12:08 AM


Re: Mythology...
That's what Neo thought about the matrix...

So your beliefs are equivalent to fiction.

Thank Jesus that the Jews were shown to be so stupid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 12:08 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 12:28 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 188 of 231 (720536)
02-25-2014 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by New Cat's Eye
02-25-2014 12:12 AM


Re: Mythology...
So your beliefs are equivalent to fiction.

Thank Jesus that the Jews were shown to be so stupid.

Bs'd

I think it is not so much a matter of stupid, but more ignorance from your side.

Like I said, science discovered this almost a 100 years ago. How come you don't have a clue?

Could it be that we are being lied to by the scientists, like we were lied to for more than a 100 years about the fossil record? Science telling us that the fossil record supported Darwin, while all the time they new it did not?

Could this be the skeleton in the closet of the physicists, like professor Richard Conn Henry from the Cambridge department of physics says?



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:12 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:38 AM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 10:09 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 189 of 231 (720537)
02-25-2014 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 12:08 AM


Re: Mythology...
So this was all added by edit:

We are living in a matrix, like Neo.

That's not ture. The Matrix is a work of fiction. You are an idiot to believe it. Pick your Torah back up already.

The difference is however, that Neo' s reality did exist, somewhere else. Our reality doesn't exist at all.
Our matrix is a lot deeper.

Too false. Here I am, sitting here replying to you, in the real world... in reality. It really does exist and we are here in it.

You're an idiot to believe in... wait, what am I saying? You're obviously a complete idiot. We can all see what you've written. It's pure lunacy.

I'll explain this a bit. A while ago I was having the shabbat dinner in the house of a dutch friend here in the Judean desert. He is married to a russian woman who happens to have a university degree in physics, she is an engineer in physics. After talking to my friend a bit in dutch, I explained to her in Hebrew that I just told my friend that the very solid table from which we were eating, that if we would leave the room, close the door, and then nobody would observe the table, that that table then would go out of existence.

About this her only comment was: "That is correct."

lulz, your russian friend is an idiot too. Tables do not cease to exists when people leave the room.

So reality is a bit diffferent from what you always imagined.

Given that you are too retarded to even know what you remember, why should I take your word on this? And given the lunacy of your posts, why should I even begin to think that you are not retarded?

Welcome to the Matrix!

Man, I always thought that Judaism was pretty fucking stupid, thanks for confirming it!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 12:08 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 1:37 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 190 of 231 (720538)
02-25-2014 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Eliyahu
02-25-2014 12:28 AM


Re: Mythology...
I think it is not so much a matter of stupid, but more ignorance from your side.

Like I said, science discovered this almost a 100 years ago. How come you don't have a clue?

Could it be that we are being lied to by the scientists, like we were lied to for more than a 100 years about the fossil record? Science telling us that the fossil record supported Darwin, while all the time they new it did not?

Could this be the skeleton in the closet of the physicists, like professor Richard Conn Henry from the Cambridge department of physics says?

No, you cannot even remember what you posted here on this forum recently. So I cannot start to think that you can even begin to remember scientific discoveries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 12:28 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Eliyahu, posted 02-25-2014 1:59 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 191 of 231 (720539)
02-25-2014 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by New Cat's Eye
02-25-2014 12:34 AM


Re: Mythology...
Tables do not cease to exists when people leave the room.

Bs'd

It is not just tables, that goes for all matter.

why should I take your word on this?

You shouldn't. You would be an idiot to take my word for it.

That's why, when I have some more time, I'll give you the scientific support.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:34 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 192 of 231 (720540)
02-25-2014 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Eliyahu
02-22-2014 2:31 PM


Re: Time is relative
So you are arguing about time slowed in gravity wells to justify speculation about the passage of time where God exists while creating. Got it.

NoNukes has addressed the issue of order in the Genesis account already which has nothing to do with time relativity.

For example we have from Gen 1:2 that the spirit of God is moving upon the face of the waters.
Then in Gen 1:3 comes the famous "Let there be light."

That should be sufficient to throw a monkey wrench into your trying to make some sort of accord between science & the big bang with Genesis.

Water exists before the creation of light.

You're the one who bogarted the entire pitcher of Kool-Aid so you get to be the one to explain this mystery. I'm all ears. Perhaps another quote from a Rabbi?

(This problem also has absolutely nothing to do with your elaborate abuse of Quantum Mechanics either so please don't go there as I'm out of aspirin at the moment.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Eliyahu, posted 02-22-2014 2:31 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 193 of 231 (720541)
02-25-2014 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by New Cat's Eye
02-25-2014 12:38 AM


Re: Mythology...
No, you cannot even remember what you posted here on this forum recently. So I cannot start to think that you can even begin to remember scientific discoveries.

Bs'd

It's hard to remember things you never said, like for instance that the big bang and the creation of the earth were at the same time. Something that some people here say I said.

But anyway, seeing that about everybody here knows next to nothing about this scientific discovery which is almost a hundred years old, it is becoming clear now who are the ignorant hillbillies, and who is not.

But no matter how interesting this subject is, it has nothing to do with what generation our sun is, and how that relates to Genesis, so bs'd I'll propose a new topic about this fascinating subject, than we can there delve deeper into it.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:38 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16168
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 194 of 231 (720582)
02-25-2014 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Eliyahu
02-24-2014 11:21 PM


Re: Mythology...
Eliyahu writes:

And you don't even know the the universe doesn't exist?? I mean; it is not like that is a recent discovery or something, science discovered it almost a hundred years ago, and you don't know about it?

Science doesn't believe the universe does not exist, but if it did then how could you argue that science is coming more into agreement with the Bible when the Bible believes the universe does exist?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 11:21 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1082
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 195 of 231 (720583)
02-25-2014 9:15 AM


Tables are there.
I hope I'm not going to far off-topic, but quantum mechanics does not say things stop existing when observed.

First of all "observed" has nothing to do with concious beings. It's a shorthand for a complicated processes known as environmental entanglement or decoherence.

Quantum mechanics says that physical systems do not have single fixed values for every quantities like they do in classical mechanics. For example they don't have a fixed location, but are instead spread over a few locations.

However certain quantities end up becoming classical or fixed at one value due to interactions with environment. For example in a table the atoms do not have a fixed location, but the table itself does, since it interacts constantly with the air and light from outside. Quantities get fixed into single values by their interaction with the environment.

If the table was removed from all interactions, for example by sealing it in a complete dark room, with no air and freezing to near absolute zero (this has to be done, since otherwise the table would interact with the kinetic energy of its own atoms) then after about a few hundred years the table would begin to "blur" and its location would stop possessing a single definite value.

However the table always exists, there is always matter present and that matter has a fixed total mass, momentum and angular momentum. Quantum mechanics does not effect quantities like this, the amount of mass is always fixed at a single value, like classical mechanics.
The quantities that are effected, simply become indefinite, i.e. not possessed of a single value. In the presence of interactions with the environment they become definite, if you remove the environment they become indefinite again.

The only reason "observation" is used, is because often in quantum mechanical experiments we concentrate on quantities that don't tend to be affected by the environment, such as the positions of atoms. In these cases the kinetic energy (temperature) of atoms in our experimental equipment essentially forms an environment for the atoms. Hence our experimental equipment ends up fixing atomic quantities into single values during their interactions with the atoms.

"Collapse" was the old term for atomic quantities being fixed to single values and we tended to see this happen during "observations". Hence the old phrase "observation cause collapse", but in reality this is just a special case of the fact that the presence of thousands of interactions with some kind of environment causes any system to assume fixed values.


  
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