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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
Phat
Member
Posts: 9563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 136 of 168 (787789)
07-21-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ringo
07-21-2016 11:49 AM


Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
Lack of belief is not a belief.
It is a belief in reality as you understand it to be...backed by evidence. In general, and in science specifically, evidence is a useful and logical belief. Whats the old saying? Seeing Is Believing....

I can only guess why you think the way that you do. Several possible reasons come to mind.

  • Evidence of human behavior.

  • Belief in secular evidence concerning the Bible as a human document and no proof that God exists or interacts with humanity. Having a history of challenging religious people who claim to have special imputation but who are evidently no wiser than secular people and in many cases worse.

  • You just like to be a contrarian

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 132 by ringo, posted 07-21-2016 11:49 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 139 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 11:54 AM Phat has responded

      
  • Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4951
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 137 of 168 (787790)
    07-21-2016 7:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 135 by mike the wiz
    07-21-2016 5:51 PM


    Re: What do you mean by chance ?
    mtw writes:

    To read more about this issue, you may want to read the first message of the following topic but I don't wish to get into the I.D debate again because I've done it so many times now I almost fall asleep if it is mentioned

    Bring your argument here or don't bother posting.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 135 by mike the wiz, posted 07-21-2016 5:51 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

      
    Dr Adequate
    Member
    Posts: 15948
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 4.3


    Message 138 of 168 (787795)
    07-21-2016 10:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 135 by mike the wiz
    07-21-2016 5:51 PM


    Re: What do you mean by chance ?
    I don't want to turn this thread into a, "Mike, please prove I.D, thread" so don't you think it is at least fair to say that the things you yourself might call "appearance of design" are at least expected-evidence if the universe is designed?

    Why yes, in the same way that you having two legs is expected evidence if you are a chicken.
    But then I'd look at all the ways in which the universe appears to not be designed, and all the ways in which you appear to not be a chicken.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 135 by mike the wiz, posted 07-21-2016 5:51 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13423
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 139 of 168 (787814)
    07-22-2016 11:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
    07-21-2016 7:12 PM


    Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
    Phat writes:

    Whats the old saying? Seeing Is Believing....


    So why do you believe in God when you don't see Him?

    The bizarre claim that God hides so that we have to have faith in Him goes contrary to the old saying.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 136 by Phat, posted 07-21-2016 7:12 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 140 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:26 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9563
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 140 of 168 (787817)
    07-22-2016 12:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 139 by ringo
    07-22-2016 11:54 AM


    Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
    John 20:24-29 writes:

    24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called The Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

    But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail prints in His hands, and put my finger in the nail prints, and put my hand in His side, I will not believe.”

    26 After eight days His disciples were again inside with the doors shut, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at My hands. Put your hand here and place it in My side. Do not be faithless, but believing.”

    28 Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have yet believed.”

    Does that answer your question? If Jesus thinks it is blessed to believe without seeing, who am I to argue with Him? (Unless you throw the silly argument at me that the redactor is telling us what Jesus said!)


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 139 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 11:54 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 141 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 12:36 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13423
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.8


    (1)
    Message 141 of 168 (787821)
    07-22-2016 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
    07-22-2016 12:26 PM


    Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
    Phat writes:

    If Jesus thinks it is blessed to believe without seeing, who am I to argue with Him?


    The story of Thomas does not support your point. Jesus showed Thomas the evidence. If those who believe without evidence are also blessed, that is not a case of "seeing is believing". You'll have to look for another "old saying" to support blind belief.

    Phat writes:

    Unless you throw the silly argument at me that the redactor is telling us what Jesus said!


    Why is that a silly argument? What reason do you have to think that Jesus' words were written down with perfect accuracy?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 140 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:26 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 142 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:53 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9563
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 142 of 168 (787824)
    07-22-2016 12:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 141 by ringo
    07-22-2016 12:36 PM


    Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
    What I'm saying is that it is blessed to believe without seeing the evidence. If God wanted us to see evidence, he would have. The Bible never suggests that without evidence it is impossible to please God. It rather suggests that without Faith it is impossible to please God.

    What reason do you have to think that Jesus' words were written down with perfect accuracy?
    Because Jesus wanted us to get the point. I agree that it can be argued either way....but I'm of the inclination that God wants us to have accurate information as to what He expects from us...otherwise He has no reason to expect humanity to make an informed choice. By the way, I'm struggling to tie this all in with chance. I suppose my argument is that there is no chance that God exists nor is there a chance that God exists. God exists, period. The argument of necessary certainty.

    God and Other Necessary Beings

    Ontological Arguments


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 141 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 12:36 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 143 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 1:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13423
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 143 of 168 (787828)
    07-22-2016 1:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
    07-22-2016 12:53 PM


    Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
    Phat writes:

    If God wanted us to see evidence, he would have.


    He did. Jesus showed Thomas.

    Phat writes:

    The Bible never suggests that without evidence it is impossible to please God. It rather suggests that without Faith it is impossible to please God.


    What Jesus said flat out - not "suggested" - was that the way to please God is to feed the hungry, etc. Apparently that is what He meant by having faith.

    Phat writes:

    I suppose my argument is that there is no chance that God exists nor is there a chance that God exists. God exists, period. The argument of necessary certainty.


    Word salad has a lot of fiber in it; it goes right through you.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 142 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9563
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 144 of 168 (787852)
    07-22-2016 5:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 16 by ramoss
    06-05-2006 3:27 PM


    Intelligence versus Chaos
    ramoss writes:

    Philosophically, chance is every reason to say there IS no designer..
    From a physics point of view, the universe is governed by probabilities.. and is not deterministic. This was shown with a number of experiments.
    Nope.. no need for a designer, unless you already assume a designer.

    I respect mainstream science to a point....because if science in general--as we know it today---is wrong, the argument concludes that we have a Creator who tricks our intelligence.

    Critics may assert that we trick ourselves through faulty assumptions in our human logic and wisdom. Probability is only useful if it can be absolutely determined as a finite fixed number. Random probability is the same as chance in that it simply assumes that "there is a good chance"....and chance in and of itself cannot create anything. By the same token, one side may say that there is no need for aq designer while the other side would go so far as to boldly assert that a designer must be a 100% certainty for without Him, life itself would not exist. We always joke that its "turtles all the way down"...but seriously look at the origin of human wisdom and logic.
    Thats right....humans.

    Intelligent Design by definition points to certain intelligence versus random probability. Does this make any sense or am I again serving up word salad? I struggle to put into words what I feel and believe.

    Todays Quote: The temptations of God were always more dangerous for mankind than those of Satan. As long as chaos dominates the world, God is an anachronism; and every compromise with one’s own conscience is perfidy. When the accursed inner voice speaks to you, hold your hands over your ears…
    ~― Arthur Koestler, Darkness at Noon

    Edited by Phat, : added quote


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by ramoss, posted 06-05-2006 3:27 PM ramoss has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9563
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 145 of 168 (787853)
    07-22-2016 5:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 78 by jar
    06-16-2006 1:17 PM


    Re: Ask why.
    jar writes:

    What were the odds that the puddle would be located exactly where it had to be to capture the pine cones and those bicycle tire tracks and that two different people would walk along the same path or that not one but two cars would wander through that same spot.

    Thats my point. There are no odds.
    To wit:

    Phat writes:

    Intelligent design makes much better sense than random design. The whole idea of we humans being the "winner of a cosmic lottery" is so much nonsense.


    jar writes:

    Now that is just a really silly statement that makes God look pretty stupid. You seem to like making God look either stupid or evil or more often, both.
    How are humans any greater winners of some cosmic lottery than cockroaches or pond scum?

    Again, my point is that there was no cosmic lottery.

    Are you asserting that humans are no more special than cockroaches or pond scum? Did God so love the pond that He sent His only begotten scum?
    Did God send a cockroach born of a virgin to fight the evil Black Flag Empire?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 78 by jar, posted 06-16-2006 1:17 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 148 by jar, posted 07-22-2016 6:22 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9563
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 146 of 168 (787855)
    07-22-2016 5:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 99 by Tangle
    07-09-2015 1:44 PM


    Re: Not A Chance
    Can you attribute any degree of probability that God exists?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2015 1:44 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 147 by Theodoric, posted 07-22-2016 6:11 PM Phat has responded

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 5765
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005


    Message 147 of 168 (787856)
    07-22-2016 6:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
    07-22-2016 5:57 PM


    Re: Not A Chance
    0 evidence = 0 probability.
    Now if you present evidence, that probability might change.

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 146 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 5:57 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 149 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 6:51 PM Theodoric has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29182
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 148 of 168 (787857)
    07-22-2016 6:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
    07-22-2016 5:54 PM


    Re: Ask why.
    Phat writes:

    jar writes:

    What were the odds that the puddle would be located exactly where it had to be to capture the pine cones and those bicycle tire tracks and that two different people would walk along the same path or that not one but two cars would wander through that same spot.

    Thats my point. There are no odds.
    To wit:

    Phat writes:

    Intelligent design makes much better sense than random design. The whole idea of we humans being the "winner of a cosmic lottery" is so much nonsense.


    jar writes:

    Now that is just a really silly statement that makes God look pretty stupid. You seem to like making God look either stupid or evil or more often, both.
    How are humans any greater winners of some cosmic lottery than cockroaches or pond scum?

    Again, my point is that there was no cosmic lottery.

    Are you asserting that humans are no more special than cockroaches or pond scum? Did God so love the pond that He sent His only begotten scum?
    Did God send a cockroach born of a virgin to fight the evil Black Flag Empire?

    Yes, I am asserting that humans are no more special than cockroaches and certainly nowhere near as successful as a species.

    Humans wrote the story about God sending his son and so the story is human centric.

    Further it seems that you totally missed the import of the story about the Lithograph. Just like the Bible Stories, the picture was created to market to humans and so was made human centric.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 145 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 5:54 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 150 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 6:57 PM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9563
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 149 of 168 (787858)
    07-22-2016 6:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 147 by Theodoric
    07-22-2016 6:11 PM


    Re: Not A Chance
    what sort of evidence would people accept?

    In my opinion, God gave no evidence on purpose.

    People by nature don't want God to exist. Am I wrong in my assumption? What do you think personally?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 147 by Theodoric, posted 07-22-2016 6:11 PM Theodoric has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 07-22-2016 8:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 156 by ringo, posted 07-23-2016 11:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9563
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 150 of 168 (787859)
    07-22-2016 6:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 148 by jar
    07-22-2016 6:22 PM


    Human Centric Mythos
    Yes, I am asserting that humans are no more special than cockroaches and certainly nowhere near as successful as a species.
    Why shouldnt humans be special? We are, after all, the only species to have built all this stuff. No other species comes close...unless you think beaver dams are as amazing as skyscrapers and supercomputers.

    Humans wrote the story about God sending his son and so the story is human centric.
    Did they make the story up or did they write about an event that happened? Why do you believe in the Nicene Creed if the whole idea is simply a story spun by a campfire on a cold night? If the story has value, would it not testify to human imagination versus an actual Creator of all seen and unseen?

    And Theodoric...why is evidence held in higher regard than faith?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 148 by jar, posted 07-22-2016 6:22 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 151 by jar, posted 07-22-2016 8:51 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 153 by Theodoric, posted 07-22-2016 8:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 154 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2016 4:11 AM Phat has responded

      
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