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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 151 of 168 (787861)
07-22-2016 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
07-22-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Phat writes:

Why shouldnt humans be special? We are, after all, the only species to have built all this stuff. No other species comes close...unless you think beaver dams are as amazing as skyscrapers and supercomputers.

It has nothing to do with whether or not humans should be special; all things are special. Cockroaches have been around long before humans existed and will be around long after humans have ceased to exist. And yes, actually I think beaver dams are more amazing than skyscrapers. You try building a beaver dam with just your teeth and no tools.

Phat writes:

Did they make the story up or did they write about an event that happened? Why do you believe in the Nicene Creed if the whole idea is simply a story spun by a campfire on a cold night? If the story has value, would it not testify to human imagination versus an actual Creator of all seen and unseen?

Of course they made the story up and all of the evidence supports that conclusion. There is a reason none of the accounts are the same and that the earliest accounts don't speak of that at all.

Phat writes:

why is evidence held in higher regard than faith?

I can't believe you even asked that. Evidence and the existence of evidence can be confirmed regardless of anyone's belief system. Evidence can be tested against logic, reason and reality.

Faith though is irrational, unreasonable, illogical and not testable except to the extent you can possibly test to see if someone really believes something. You cannot test whether faith is actually justified.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 6:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 152 of 168 (787862)
07-22-2016 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
07-22-2016 6:51 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Verifiable and testable evidence.

In my opinion, God gave no evidence on purpose.

That's convenient isn't it.

People by nature don't want God to exist.

Bullshit. Support your assertion or retract.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 6:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 153 of 168 (787863)
07-22-2016 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
07-22-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Because evidence is verifiable and testable. Faith is wishful thinking.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 6:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 154 of 168 (787886)
07-23-2016 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
07-22-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Phat writes:

why is evidence held in higher regard than faith?

Faith tells us absolutely nothing about what is correct. Who is right the Hindu or the Christian?

Always this need from believers to make faith eqivalent to knowledge......

Evidence points to the best answers and increases our knowledge.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 6:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 07-23-2016 10:18 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 155 of 168 (787895)
07-23-2016 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tangle
07-23-2016 4:11 AM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Faith tells us absolutely nothing about what is correct.
There simply is no science to religion.
Who is right the Hindu or the Christian?
The Christian, of course.

Always this need from believers to make faith equivalent to knowledge......
For me, the reason is the inner confirmation of my belief. Of course I cant provide objective evidence...

Evidence points to the best answers and increases our knowledge.
From a humanist manifesto perspective, this makes sense.

Seeing how this is a science forum, I will defer to you and Theodoric regarding evidence...although I still ascribe to the philosophy that nothing happens "by chance."

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : fixed quote


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2016 4:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2016 11:58 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 156 of 168 (787900)
07-23-2016 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
07-22-2016 6:51 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

People by nature don't want God to exist.


Does the Pope wish there was no God but since there is he might as well get on His good side?

You seem to have a very low opinion of faith - and of a god who would be fooled by people who don't want to believe in him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 6:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 157 of 168 (787901)
07-23-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
07-23-2016 10:18 AM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Phat writes:

From a human perspective, this makes sense.

Fixed.

Seeing how this is a science forum, I will defer to you and Theodoric regarding evidence...although I still ascribe to the philosophy that nothing happens "by chance."

Coin toss, dice roll......?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 07-23-2016 10:18 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 07-26-2016 6:49 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 158 of 168 (788189)
07-26-2016 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Tangle
07-23-2016 11:58 AM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Coin toss, dice roll......?
Is it possible to calculate a fixed probability for either of those?

Did someone toss the coin and/or throw the dice or did they simply toss themselves?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2016 11:58 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Tangle, posted 07-27-2016 1:13 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 159 of 168 (788198)
07-27-2016 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
07-26-2016 6:49 PM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
quote:
Is it possible to calculate a fixed probability for either of those?

Coin toss p=.5
Dice roll p=.1666666666667

If you think differently you're about to lose a lot of money.

quote:
Did someone toss the coin and/or throw the dice or did they simply toss themselves?

Sometimes you worry me Phat. What on earth do you mean? Have you been smoking that funny stuff again?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 07-26-2016 6:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 07-31-2016 7:48 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 160 of 168 (788401)
07-31-2016 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Tangle
07-27-2016 1:13 AM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
My point is that you cant calculate probability on cosmic events.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Tangle, posted 07-27-2016 1:13 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 07-31-2016 8:31 AM Phat has responded
 Message 164 by Tangle, posted 07-31-2016 1:46 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 161 of 168 (788402)
07-31-2016 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
07-31-2016 7:48 AM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Phat writes:

My point is that you cant calculate probability on cosmic events.

Come on Phat.

You cannot seriously think that.

Do scientists not calculate the probability of a given asteroid or comet hitting the earth; the probability of meteor showers over a given location and period of time; of accurately reaching a given cosmic object ...


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 07-31-2016 7:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 07-31-2016 10:16 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 162 of 168 (788404)
07-31-2016 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
07-31-2016 8:31 AM


When Precisely Was Once Upon A Time?
Do scientists not calculate the probability of a given asteroid or comet hitting the earth; the probability of meteor showers over a given location and period of time; of accurately reaching a given cosmic object ...
Sure, but these are not macro cosmological events. Do they calculate when a super nova will erupt?
Do they calculate the speed of the Big Bang Expansion?
Do they have any way to calculate at what point in time The Bang occurred?

The Bible tells us "In The Beginning"...was this simply akin to a storyteller saying "Once Upon A Time...."? Or is "15 billion years ago" little more than a guess?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 07-31-2016 8:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 07-31-2016 10:34 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 163 of 168 (788406)
07-31-2016 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
07-31-2016 10:16 AM


Re: When Precisely Was Once Upon A Time?
Phat writes:

Sure, but these are not macro cosmological events. Do they calculate when a super nova will erupt?
Do they calculate the speed of the Big Bang Expansion?
Do they have any way to calculate at what point in time The Bang occurred?

Yes, including when our own sun will expand and destroy the Earth.

Yes, they have calculated the speed of the Big Bang Expansion and even the speed of the current universal expansion.

Yes, they have calculated at what point of time the Big Bang happened.

Phat writes:

Or is "15 billion years ago" little more than a guess?

15 Billion years is far more than a guess.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 07-31-2016 10:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 164 of 168 (788427)
07-31-2016 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
07-31-2016 7:48 AM


Re: Human Centric Mythos
Phat writes:

My point is that you cant calculate probability on cosmic events.

You can calculate probability on anything with enough information. But in any case, none of this seems relevant to anything....?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 07-31-2016 7:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 08-01-2016 12:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 165 of 168 (788470)
08-01-2016 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Tangle
07-31-2016 1:46 PM


Necessary Certainty
You can calculate probability on anything with enough information. But in any case, none of this seems relevant to anything....?

My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance. The universe was in fact created by necessary certainty. That it is means that we are. I struggle for the words I want to say. It may well be that one could assert that a Designer/Creator is unnecessary, but I would say that if the universe exists by necessity and if we exist and can intellectualize this stuff, than Certainty is involved rather than chance.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Tangle, posted 07-31-2016 1:46 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Tangle, posted 08-01-2016 3:18 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 167 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2016 12:16 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 168 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2016 12:23 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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