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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 106 of 168 (787566)
07-18-2016 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
07-17-2016 8:39 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
quote:

There is a good series on the concept of chance which I listen to regularly.

Based on the quotes you offer here, it doesn't seem to be very good.

quote:

Their basic premise is that chance is logical only when verified by probability

That would be a very silly thing to say. Can you explain what they mean ? Because it certainly isn't clear.

quote:


Can something come from nothing? Was "chance" the cosmic power behind creation? Despite scientific advances, there remains an undercurrent of irrationality in scientific writing.


I hardly think that their refusal to understand the relevant science - even at a layman's level - indicates that science is irrational in any respect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 07-17-2016 8:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 107 of 168 (787578)
07-18-2016 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
07-17-2016 8:39 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

Their basic premise is that chance is logical only when verified by probability.


What are the chances of rolling a six? What's the probability of rolling a six?

What's the difference?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 07-17-2016 8:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:13 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 108 of 168 (787581)
07-18-2016 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
07-18-2016 12:03 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
when it comes to a dice....nothing. A dice is governed by weight, inertia, angle and force of throw, etc...and this can all be measured. Thus in the context of probability, chance is a perfectly useful and valid word.

Its when we throw phrases out there like "The universe evolved (or came into being) by chance.

First of all, it is impossible for anything to at one time not exist and then to later exist.

Out of nothing, nothing comes. And chance as used in this example has no assigned or even estimated probability...chance simply represents an unknown probability.

This is an incorrect way to think about chance and.or use the term. Chance cannot cause anything because chance is of itself nothing.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 07-18-2016 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2016 1:22 PM Phat has responded
 Message 111 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2016 1:51 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 112 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-18-2016 2:30 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2016 4:05 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 07-19-2016 11:41 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 109 of 168 (787582)
07-18-2016 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:13 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
So is this just the arrogance of the ignorant, or just plain lying ? And how could either be considered good?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:34 PM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 110 of 168 (787583)
07-18-2016 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
07-18-2016 1:22 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
I am not knowingly lying nor am I arrogant apart from believing through faith and considering that better than evidence. I believe that nothing happens "by chance". That is why i am a cosmological creationist. God exists.

Chance is the anti-creator in this context.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2016 1:22 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2016 4:12 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2016 4:22 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 111 of 168 (787584)
07-18-2016 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:13 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

First of all, it is impossible for anything to at one time not exist and then to later exist.

Out of nothing, nothing comes.

These are just bear assertions. The concept of 'nothing' is not something you or I understand. Hawkings thinks rather differently.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15474
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 112 of 168 (787586)
07-18-2016 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:13 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Its when we throw phrases out there like "The universe evolved (or came into being) by chance.

But no-one does say that; rather, liars put it forward as a strawman of the atheist position.

First of all, it is impossible for anything to at one time not exist and then to later exist.

Not only is that possible, it's usual.

This is an incorrect way to think about chance and.or use the term. Chance cannot cause anything because chance is of itself nothing.

Well, this is just playing with words. You could play similarly silly games with the words "by design" if you wanted to, but why would you want to?

To say "X happened by design" means "X happened as a result of a process directed by the intention of a sentient being". It does not mean that there's some non-abstract thing called Design that caused it to happen, and no-one would think it did mean that unless they were determined to play silly buggers. In the same way, to say "X happened by chance" is to say "X happened as the result of a process which had a possibility of turning out some other way".


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9323
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 113 of 168 (787588)
07-18-2016 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:13 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
First of all, it is impossible for anything to at one time not exist and then to later exist.

Really? So Phat has been in existence since the dawn of time? Perhaps you might want to rephrase your statement just a bit.

Beyond that, your statement would seem to imply that the universe itself was not actually created. Maybe that is something ICANT might agree with, but is it something that you meant to say?

Out of nothing, nothing comes.

So you assert. At least when you stick to simply making assertion you are not making arguments that you cannot defend, such as the one below:

And chance as used in this example has no assigned or even estimated probability...chance simply represents an unknown probability.

And therefore, what?

First of all, evolutionist don't say that the universe or evolution means things happening by chance. That is instead how creationist describe abiogenesis, evolution and scientific cosmology.

Have you ever spilled anything, Phat? What was the result? Nothing?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9323
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 114 of 168 (787589)
07-18-2016 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:34 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
I am not knowingly lying nor am I arrogant apart from believing through faith and considering that better than evidence.

I don't believe that you are being accused of lying. On the other hand, someone who bothered to author an entire book denouncing a viewpoint that nobody seems to hold is a different matter entirely. It is difficult to imagine accomplishing this feat without a little peek at how evolution and cosmology are actually described unless your intent was something other than the actual rebuttal you claim this book to be.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:34 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 115 of 168 (787591)
07-18-2016 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:34 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
quote:

I am not knowingly lying nor am I arrogant apart from believing through faith and considering that better than evidence

I am not accusing you of that. I am accusing you of endorsing one of the two, and I would like to know which one. Or do you have some other explanation for the obvious misrepresentation you attribute to this podcast ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 116 of 168 (787615)
07-19-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:13 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

Its when we throw phrases out there like "The universe evolved (or came into being) by chance.


We don't throw out phrases like that.

Phat writes:

...chance simply represents an unknown probability.


If the probability is unknown, how can you dismiss it as "impossible"?

Edited by ringo, : Corrected quote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 07-19-2016 7:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 117 of 168 (787632)
07-19-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
07-19-2016 11:41 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
If the probability is unknown, how can you dismiss it as "impossible"?

Because if there was even the slightest possibility of chance, God would be an anachronism.

quote:
God is conceived as a self-existent, eternal being who possesses intrinsically the power of being. Such power is a sufficient cause for creation. Time and chance have no being, and consequently no power. Yet they are able to be so effective as to render God an anachronism. At least with God we have a potential miracle-worker. With chance we have nothing with which to work the miracle. Chance offers us a rabbit without a hat—what's even more astonishing—without a magician.
I agree witrh the logic of this theologian. I don't mean to sound as if I dismiss science...but I am saying that I agree that neither time, space, nor chance in and of themselves as defined have the power to create anything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 07-19-2016 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2016 11:50 PM Phat has responded
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 07-20-2016 11:56 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 118 of 168 (787633)
07-19-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
07-18-2016 4:22 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Chances are I'm arrogant.(pun intended)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2016 4:22 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 119 of 168 (787646)
07-19-2016 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
07-19-2016 7:12 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
So why is his imagination better than reality ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 07-19-2016 7:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:33 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 120 of 168 (787648)
07-20-2016 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by PaulK
07-19-2016 11:50 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
the whole point is this: His imagination is reality. There is no probability involved. Is that arrogant to state? To me it is even more arrogant for people to claim that random sequences of events produced Cosmological creation by chance. It shows that people value randomness more than belief in certainty.

ringo writes:

If the probability is unknown, how can you dismiss it as "impossible"?

Would you dismiss God as unknown? (apart from the character of legend and mythos)

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by PaulK, posted 07-19-2016 11:50 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 12:41 AM Phat has responded
 Message 126 by jar, posted 07-20-2016 8:12 AM Phat has responded

  
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