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Author Topic:   Another example of right wing evil
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 2356
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 226 of 247 (623594)
07-11-2011 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by subbie
07-11-2011 4:39 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
Ah, subie? Your list of cases?

I really don't mean to be pedantic but:

Board of Ed. of Independent School Dist. No. 92 v Earls 536 U.S. 822 (2002) has to do with a state's right to drug screen kids for certain activities and the court agreed the state has such a right.

Zelman v. Simmons-Harris 536 U.S. 639 (2002) is an Establishment case about assisting poor families to pay for schooling in other than the failed public schools in Cleveland which the court found was proper.

Mitchell v. Helms 530 U.S. 793 (2000) is another Establishment case involving funding to private schools for "secular, neutral, and nonideological" programs which the court agreed was proper.

Meyer v. State of Nebraska 262 U.S. 390 (1923) deals with individual's rights (via the Fourteenth Amendment) verses a state's attempt seen as an arbitrary restriction on private educational instruction where the court sided with the individual's right to private instruction.

These do not appear to apply to the discussion at hand where a state's right to determine public school curriculum is challenged.

I haven't the time to go through all the cases. Is there a case listed where the Court granted Congress supremacy over the states in determining public school curriculum?

I have no doubt that under some "necessary and proper" clause Congress could at least attempt such control, but I am not aware of such a standing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by subbie, posted 07-11-2011 4:39 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by subbie, posted 07-11-2011 8:09 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 2356
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 227 of 247 (623596)
07-11-2011 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Straggler
07-11-2011 6:21 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
I have objected to the law on the basis that it is a shit ...

And I think all of us, even Arte, agree.

... whilst throughout this thread he has advocated it not just on the basis of Tennessee being allowed to make such laws but on the basis that it is somehow anti-nanny state for them to do so and a case of good parenting that they have.

I think Arte sometimes gets lost in his own rhetoric and emotion, but I read him as saying Tennessee has such a right, bad implementation as it is, and it's not anyone else's, including the Feds, right to challenge. Let the affected citizens of Tennessee challenge this idiocy.

I think the thing Arte misses is that we, all of us, have every right to express our dismay at this foolishness and call the legislature of Tennessee assholes. That is our right.

Edited by AZPaul3, : oopps

Edited by AZPaul3, : more oopps

Edited by AZPaul3, : goo god I am never going to get this right


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Straggler, posted 07-11-2011 6:21 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 07-12-2011 3:26 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 237 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-12-2011 7:47 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3358
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 228 of 247 (623598)
07-11-2011 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Artemis Entreri
07-11-2011 6:53 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
Wow something in the vastness of history that I didnt know invalidates, my education ::rolls eyes::

I suppose that's as close as we should expect you to come to admitting you were wrong.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member
Posts: 3358
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 229 of 247 (623599)
07-11-2011 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by AZPaul3
07-11-2011 7:17 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
I was responding specifically to AE's claim that
The US Constitution has no powers over education, that has always been left to the individual states to deal with.

However, in answer to your specific question, how about Epperson v. Arkansas 393 U.S. 97 (1968), where the Court held that Arkansas could not forbid the teaching of a particular scientific theory? (I'll leave it to you to suss out what Arkansas wanted kept out of schools. It's not exactly a tough question.) It had nothing to do with the Necessary and Proper Clause or Congress, the Court decided the case under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Any time a state tries to do something with public school curriculum that runs afoul of the Constitution, federal courts are empowered to prohibit the state's action.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 7:17 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 8:35 PM subbie has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 2356
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 230 of 247 (623600)
07-11-2011 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by subbie
07-11-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
Any time a state tries to do something with public school curriculum that runs afoul of the Constitution, federal courts are empowered to prohibit the state's action.

When you're right you're right.

[Ruth Buzzi]

Never mind.

[/Ruth Buzzi]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by subbie, posted 07-11-2011 8:09 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by subbie, posted 07-11-2011 11:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3358
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 231 of 247 (623612)
07-11-2011 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by AZPaul3
07-11-2011 8:35 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
[Ruth Buzzi]

Never mind.

[/Ruth Buzzi]

Not to be pedantic, but I think you meant either Gilda Radner or Emily Litella.

Edited by subbie, : Quote box


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 8:35 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2011 2:37 AM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 2356
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 232 of 247 (623622)
07-12-2011 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by subbie
07-11-2011 11:43 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
Not to be pedantic, but I think you meant either Gilda Radner or Emily Litella.

[Gilda Radner]

Oh.

Nevermind.

[/Gilda Radner]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by subbie, posted 07-11-2011 11:43 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9961
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 233 of 247 (623630)
07-12-2011 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by AZPaul3
07-11-2011 7:34 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
If we all agree that the law in question is itself objectionable then I guess there is little else for me to discuss.

But you guys really really do seem to have lost sight of the real issue by obsessing over what seems to me the relatively unimportant issue of exactly which branch of legislature is imposing shit laws on people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 7:34 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2011 4:18 AM Straggler has responded
 Message 236 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-12-2011 7:37 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9961
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 234 of 247 (623631)
07-12-2011 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Artemis Entreri
07-11-2011 6:53 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
I assume the first paragraph of your post is addressed to someone else?

Straggler writes:

If you had said yes it is a pointless and discriminatory law but Tennessee has every legal right to make that decision and I support that right even I object to the law itself - You would not have received the widespread condemnation that you have.

AE writes:

That is bullshit, but you are entitled to believing that if you want to.

Sure people would have disagreed about the legal intricacies. But the wider condemnation wouldn't have occurred if you had made it clear to begin with that you too find the actual law itself objectionable.

AE writes:

Individual freedoms is why they can make a silly law like this.

And it is this attitude that I find absolutely mystifying. It's like you guys see local government legislators as champions of the people and guardians of freedom no matter how fuckwitted, unlibertarian or pointlessly unnecessary and intrusive the laws they come up with are.

It genuinely makes no sense to me.

Straggler writes:

If you were that history teacher could you be totally confident that the law would not be applied against you or not?

AE writes:

Totally confident? No; but worth a shot? Yes.

I wouldn't risk my career and livelihood and I doubt many teachers would either. Which means many of the liberal concerns about the effects of this legislation are warranted.

AE writes:

The parenting thing is related to the Butt Fucking thing that I thought you wanted to drop? I guess you dont want to drop it then?

I am happy to drop the butt fucking issue but if you want to take another shot I am right behind you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-11-2011 6:53 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 2356
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 235 of 247 (623634)
07-12-2011 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Straggler
07-12-2011 3:26 AM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
But you guys really really do seem to have lost sight of the real issue by obsessing over what seems to me the relatively unimportant issue of exactly which branch of legislature is imposing shit laws on people.

Hey, we're Americans! We gotta do things in a complex way.

Without all the hand wringing over who has what right to do idiotic things and who has what right to get upset over it, then we are all just voicing our opinions and, in a case like this, that makes for a rather short bland thread.

And it can get worse.

If we want to discuss what can be done about it then we need to obsess over why the body in question did what it did so we can obsess over who has legal standing as an injured party then obsess over in which court that standing resides and then obsess on what grounds are available in that specific court to make a challenge.

We could go another 200 messages in this thread on that discussion.

Straggler, ain't this fun for you?

But this terribly off topic and I've already crossed the Moose once this week so I think we better move on.

Edited by AZPaul3, : added


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 07-12-2011 3:26 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 07-12-2011 9:58 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 672 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 236 of 247 (623641)
07-12-2011 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Straggler
07-12-2011 3:26 AM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
But you guys really really do seem to have lost sight of the real issue by obsessing over what seems to me the relatively unimportant issue of exactly which branch of legislature is imposing shit laws on people.

really? I explained myself on page 4 and had to defend myself for 11 more pages. and I am the obsessed one? ROFLMFAO!

Typing the same thing over and over again for 11 pages, if AZPaul3 had never joined in I'd still be saying the same thing right now, who knows if this would have ever ended.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 07-12-2011 3:26 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 672 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 237 of 247 (623642)
07-12-2011 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by AZPaul3
07-11-2011 7:34 PM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
I think Arte sometimes gets lost in his own rhetoric and emotion, but I read him as saying Tennessee has such a right, bad implementation as it is, and it's not anyone else's, including the Feds, right to challenge. Let the affected citizens of Tennessee challenge this idiocy.

I have not once allowed emotion into this, unless laughing out loud at the nonsense that this place is counts, it has been hilarious. other than that, yah purdy much.

I think the thing Arte misses is that we, all of us, have every right to express our dismay at this foolishness and call the legislature of Tennessee assholes. That is our right.

I didn't miss that, people can disagree all they want to about anything, I was merely pointing out the falsehoods in the OP. the "inevitable consequences of the law", when I asked for evidence of this assertion, the answer was basically to attack me (because they have no evidence), and of course they attacked me out of context and off topic, using ad hominem and strawman after strawman (but this is EvC and after 500 posts it is to be expected). Straggler was the only one who wanted clarification, and asked me questions instead of acting like a child.

well its been funny; until next time...

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 7:34 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9961
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 238 of 247 (623649)
07-12-2011 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by AZPaul3
07-12-2011 4:18 AM


Re: Are You a Libertarian?
AZStraggler, ain't this fun for you?

Well I guess the "fun" has to stop at some point.....

If we all agree that the law itself is objectionable then I have nothing more to say really.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2011 4:18 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3179
Joined: 08-12-2009
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 239 of 247 (623693)
07-12-2011 3:34 PM


Not necessarily evil, per se
But down right disgusting. House Majority Leader Eric Cantor proposes college students pay interest immediately instead of getting deferrments

The House majority leader, who did most of the talking for the Republican side, said those taking out student loans should start paying interest right away, rather than being able to defer payments until after graduation. It is a big-ticket item that would save $40 billion over 10 years.

Obama responded:

Im not going to do that, Obama said. Im not going to take money from old people and screw students, not without some compromise on the tax-increase side.

This, coupled with Boehner saying the debt ceiling is Obama's problem and it's his fault if it doesn't get resolved. Lying fuck.

Now, someone remind me: why should ANYONE, other than the uber rich, vote (R)?

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Taz, posted 07-14-2011 1:06 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Taz
Member
Posts: 5047
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 240 of 247 (623914)
07-14-2011 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by hooah212002
07-12-2011 3:34 PM


Re: Not necessarily evil, per se
Its obvious they are obstructionists at this point.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by hooah212002, posted 07-12-2011 3:34 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 07-16-2011 10:09 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
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