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Author Topic:   The Constraints of Design
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 3 of 84 (482659)
09-17-2008 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
09-17-2008 7:55 AM


Re-Designer
Hi dogrelata,
I don't have the foggiest idea what IDers believe but I do have some thoughts of my own.
I have designed a few things in my lifetime. Houses, interstate exchanges, and thousands of kitchens. I find that my design was only limited by my imagination.
dogrelata writes:
So the first question might be, based on what IDers have observed of the designs they perceive in nature, what design constraints did the intelligent designer have to work with in formulating its 'grand design'? Specifically, what design knowledge was available to it? What materials were available to it? Where did these materials come from?
I look at the watch on my wrist and it amazes me how it can keep time. I have no understanding of how it works I just know it works.
I look at this beautiful universe we live in and it amazes me at how it works. I have no understanding of how it works I just know it works. I know there is much study and speculation of how it works.
Science says prior to the existence of the universe at T=10-43 "we do not know". So anything prior to that is speculation. There are some speculation of how we got from there to here. But the biggest mystery remains to be dark energy and dark matter, along with the genesis particle. Still looking for them.
Now to your questions.
As far as I am concerned your reference to intelligent designer and it, is the great I AM.
1.."what design constraints did the intelligent designer have to work with in formulating its 'grand design'?"
Design is limited only by imagination. So there would be no limit.
2.."what design knowledge was available to it?"
All knowledge.
3.."What materials were available to it?"
Everything you see and everything you cannot see.
4.."Where did these materials come from?"
From the warehouse of energy.
dogrelata writes:
Indeed, the very reason that things need to be designed and then produced is because they cannot be 'magiced' into existence -
The universe is here. That is a fact.
According to Hawking the universe did not always exist.
That makes it necessary for the universe to have to come into existence.
To me it was created by the great I AM. That is magic to you.
OR
It was created by a scalar field that there is no evidence for. That is magic to me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 7:55 AM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 11:24 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 5 by bluegenes, posted 09-17-2008 11:39 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 11 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 1:48 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 7 of 84 (482668)
09-17-2008 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
09-17-2008 11:24 AM


Re: Untrue to start with
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes:
This is, of course, utterly untrue and obvious nonsense. One obvious constraint is the budget. After that the actual requirements are a constraint that must be considered if the design is to be worth shit: Is the house for a family of 10 or 2? Is the exchange meant to handle 1,000 cars a day or 50,000? Is the kitchen in a large restaurant or a woodland cabin? This only starts to list the enormous number of constraints you were limited by.
Ned there was no restrictions on my design.
There were restrictions on my implementation.
Most of the time budget was no problem.
God Bless.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 11:24 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 1:11 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 13 of 84 (482692)
09-17-2008 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by dogrelata
09-17-2008 1:48 PM


Re-Designer
Hi dogrelata,
dogrelata writes:
Sorry ICANT, but you’re going to have to try a bit harder if you want to be taken seriously. The “my god is great, it can do anything” routine may be fine in the playground, but I’m kind of hoping we can aspire to something a little better around here.
You want to know what the constraints would be on my God.
There is absolutly none.
Just as there are no constraints placed on the Higgs field that is used by science to produce our universe.
So what is the problem?
Is my Creator not allowed the same privilages as your creator?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 1:48 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 3:45 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 3:45 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 18 of 84 (482719)
09-17-2008 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
09-17-2008 3:45 PM


Re: Higgs
Hi Ned,
NoseyNed writes:
That is, of course, also not true. The Higgs had to have certain properties to fit in the standard model.
If I mess this up please correct me.
In the Standard Model, the Higgs field consists of two neutral and two charged component fields. One of those netural fields is the Higgs boson. This particle is massive as the other three fields are massless. In this particle everything in the universe, what we see and what we do not see, was compacted unless Guth is correct that inflation is the perfect free lunch.
This would be the same type of particle that Hawking Turok proposed with their instanton.
Now if this particle was responsible for everything we see and do not see it had to be all powerful without any limits or constraints to produce what it did.
Isn't that exactly what I said my creator did.
Your creator seems to be just as elusive as mine does.
No one has produced physical evidence of either one yet.
That is if you rule out the testimony of those who saw Jesus and His miracles. Like the dead made to live again and His resurrection where He was seen for 40 days after His death burial and resurrection.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2008 3:45 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by cavediver, posted 09-17-2008 6:40 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 20 of 84 (482724)
09-17-2008 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by dogrelata
09-17-2008 3:45 PM


Re-Designer
Hi dogrelata,
dogrelata writes:
I guess as a designer you might want to pour more concrete to add strength to a structure, but applying the same principle by repeating the assertion “my god is great, it can do anything” does nothing to strengthen your case.
Would you please point out where I said: “my god is great, it can do anything”
Those words are in quotation marks and is attributed to Message 13.
If that is what you thought I said say so. But don't put the words in my mouth. Make a correction please.
Would you mind answering the question I asked in Message 13?
Just as there are no constraints placed on the Higgs field that is used by science to produce our universe.
So what is the problem?
Is my Creator not allowed the same privilages as your creator?
You can call whatever 'it' was that brought the universe into being by any name you desire it does not change the fact that 'it' is the creator.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by dogrelata, posted 09-17-2008 3:45 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 09-17-2008 5:24 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 24 by bluegenes, posted 09-17-2008 6:25 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 28 by dogrelata, posted 09-18-2008 2:50 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 22 of 84 (482732)
09-17-2008 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Straggler
09-17-2008 5:24 PM


Re-Designer
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
If you want your God to be judged on the same standards of observation, testing and evidence then that is fine.......
But he is tested and judged according to the evidence.
An experiment is preformed 107 times per minute worldwide that proves whether God exists or not.
The problem is that none of the participants in the experiment can report their findings.
It is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment.
At that point all doubt is erased if God exists. If He does not no one will ever know the difference.
Straggler writes:
The Higgs field will eventually be abandoned if no empirical evidence is found for it.
Then be replaced by a different name as there must be a creator for the universe to come into being. Makes no difference what you call 'it'.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 09-17-2008 5:24 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 09-17-2008 6:21 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 26 of 84 (482766)
09-17-2008 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by bluegenes
09-17-2008 6:25 PM


Re-Constraints
Hi bluegenes,
bluegenes writes:
If your God has no constraints on what he can do, then he does not fit the "designs" of this planet, as they are tightly restricted in a way that wouldn't be necessary for an unconstrained designer.
I said my creator (God) did not have any restraints on Him.
I did not say that He did not place a lot of restraints on the universe. The universe requires constant attention. I think science calls it dark energy, dark matter and gravity.
I have a verse of scripture that tells me,
Colo 1:17 (KJV) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
all things exist by the creator. He is the energy science is looking for.
One day He is going to cause the universe to melt with fervent heat and then He will make a new heaven and a new earth.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by bluegenes, posted 09-17-2008 6:25 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 27 of 84 (482771)
09-17-2008 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by cavediver
09-17-2008 6:40 PM


Re: Higgs
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Why do you insist on spouting such gibberish?
Just to make your day.
Now you explained to me how everything came from a smaller than pea sized universe.
I asked where did the pea sized universe came from. Your answer was "we don't know".
I wasn't satisfied with that answer so I went looking for the answer.
I found Hawking Turok instanton was described as a scalar field like the Higgs field.
I then looked up the Higgs field, and I found this. Here
In the Standard Model, the Higgs field consists of two neutral and two charged component fields. Both of the charged components and one of the neutral fields are Goldstone bosons, which are massless and act as the longitudinal third-polarization components of the massive W+, W-, and Z bosons. The quantum of the remaining neutral component corresponds to the massive Higgs boson. Since the Higgs field is a scalar field, the Higgs boson has no spin, hence no intrinsic angular momentum. The Higgs boson is also its own antiparticle and is CP-even.
The Higgs boson, also known as the BEH Mechanism, is a hypothetical massive scalar elementary particle predicted to exist by the Standard Model of particle physics. It is the only Standard Model particle not yet observed.
Now if my understanding is so wrong. Would you please explain so that I can understand?
Thanks in advance.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by cavediver, posted 09-17-2008 6:40 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by cavediver, posted 09-18-2008 3:08 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 39 of 84 (482863)
09-18-2008 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by cavediver
09-18-2008 3:08 AM


Re: Higgs
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
You don't have the first clue what these words even mean. Prove me wrong by explaining what instanton means - in your own words...
Instanton = a mathematical equation developed in physics as a method of calculating Feynman's integral.
The Instanton I have been referring to is the one proposed by Hawking Turok.
Hawking Turok Instanton = a mathematical equation that is a twist in matter and spacetime which has a fleeting existence in time.
This instanton does not exist within any thing, there is no before, and there is no outside to it.
It is a sort of elementary particle that lasts for an instant.
This instanton is the spark that ignites inflation
If you have this instanton, it will instantly turn into an inflating infinite universe.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by cavediver, posted 09-18-2008 3:08 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Admin, posted 09-18-2008 2:14 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 45 by cavediver, posted 09-19-2008 3:11 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 41 of 84 (482869)
09-18-2008 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by bluegenes
09-18-2008 12:59 PM


Re-Design
Hi bluegenes,
bluegenes writes:
A supernatural designer without constraints surely wouldn't need to design "machines",
The God of the Bible did create machines. They are called angels and do exactly what they are programed to do. Even Satan did exactly what he was supposed to do.
bluegenes writes:
So, do I.D. arguments point to a constrained and probably natural rather than supernatural designer?
To me most I. D. arguments make less sense that does many of the cosmology and evolutionist arguments.
My only argument here is that an entity (be it God or the Instanton or some such particle) that could bring this universe into existence which is some 75 billion light years across and growing by the second could not have any constraints placed upon it.
That entity could place constraints on the universe by setting natural laws in place that the universe and everything in it could not break even though they could be bent.
And yes there is a purpose but I don't think that would be on topic and I have wavered a little far away in my answer to cavediver.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by bluegenes, posted 09-18-2008 12:59 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
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