ID question for creationists

Here's a question for creationists that I was pondering the other day, more philosophical in nature. I'm relatively new to the board so forgive me if this has been asked before...If we were intelligently designed, why did Eve and Adam eat the apple that caused human expulsion from Paradise?

Actually if you ask the ID guys you are likely to see them brushing the question aside. Being a 'secular' attempt, ID is unlikely to address religious stuff like Adam and his wife. Ask Biblical literalists instead.

The biblical account of Adam and Eve gives a basic outline of the fall of man without neccessarily getting inside Gods' head a great deal. The most common criticism of the account is that if Adam and Eve sinned then how can you say that they were ever perfect. The best common response to this dilemna is probably that if God were make us without any capacity to disobey then we would be no more than robots programmed to tow the line.
The ability to choose right or wrong, means that when we choose to love or worship it is genuine and not just a programmed response like instincts in the animal kingdom. God created us for a higher purpose than a spider that insinctively makes a web. he made us in his own image, with conscience and reason and creativity.

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The best common response to this dilemna is probably that if God were make us without any capacity to disobey then we would be no more than robots programmed to tow the line.
The ability to choose right or wrong, means that when we choose to love or worship it is genuine and not just a programmed response like instincts in the animal kingdom. God created us for a higher purpose than a spider that insinctively makes a web. he made us in his own image, with conscience and reason and creativity.

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But... if they already knew right from wrong, then what was wrong with eating the fruit of knowledge?

Gemster writes:

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The best common response to this dilemna is probably that if God were make us without any capacity to disobey then we would be no more than robots programmed to tow the line.

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Not at all. He could have made them with the knowledge of right and wrong and taught them how to follow their natural instincts to be good.Besides, Adam and Eve didn't sin by eating of the Tree of Knowledge. To sin requires a knowledge of good and evil and a deliberte intent to do evil. Since they hadn't eaten from the Tree yet when they ate from the Tree, they didn't know anything about good or evil and thus could not possibly be deliberate in their action to eat from it.

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The ability to choose right or wrong, means that when we choose to love or worship it is genuine and not just a programmed response like instincts in the animal kingdom.

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But Adam and Eve didn't have that ability.They hadn't eaten from the Tree yet.

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he made us in his own image, with conscience and reason and creativity.

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But Adam and Eve weren't.They hadn't eaten from the tree, yet.They were, indeed, robots. They had no ability to comprehend what they were doing, why they were doing it, nor the consequences of their actions.It was only after they ate from the Tree that they could do that.Adam and Eve were punished because they became autonomous.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Not at all. He could have made them with the knowledge of right and wrong and taught them how to follow their natural instincts to be good.
.........................................if someone has a natural instinct to do good it is a robot

Does that mean that God is a robot ?

Gemster responds to me:

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Not at all. He could have made them with the knowledge of right and wrong and taught them how to follow their natural instincts to be good.

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if someone has a natural instinct to do good it is a robot

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Why?People hunger and follow their natural instincts to eat. Is that "being a robot"? People have sexual desires and follow their natural instincts to give and receive sexual pleasure. Is that "being a robot"?Why does having a sense of right and wrong and naturally liking the good part "being a robot"? Be specific.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

If this works I've learnt something today

some of my replies must have been going to individual recipients{NOTE FROM ADMINNEMOOSEUS:The "This message is a reply to" is an indicator of which message you were replying to. You used the little reply button at the bottom of that message. This is good and proper procedure if you are responding to a specific message.Everybody still gets to see your response - Not just the person you are replying to.}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-21-2003]

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Adam and Eve were punished because they became autonomous.

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True, and because they disobeyed the command of God. The diabolical stategy of Satan was to operate via the smartest, most intelligent/subtile of God's creatures, the serpent (imo, then dinosaurs, the pre-cursed serpents) to begile the woman, the more easily beguiled of the sexes, to eat of the fruit. After eating and enjoying the taste, the woman brought it to the man to taste and eat. The text does not specify as to whether the woman told the man where she got the fruit. If that was the case, he should've asked before eating. The apostle Paul gives this accout of the woman being deceived as one of the reasons for forbidding women to teach or exercise authority over the man in I Timothy 2:12, 13.So the mysterious tree poses the question as to why God put it there in the first place if it was not to be allowed for food or another useful purpose. At best, we can only speculate on that one. The Bible mentions elsewhere the "mystery of iniquity." Is there a bigger picture in which this all is involved? The Bible tells of this struggle in the universe between good and evil. In Revelation chapter 12 a final war is waged in which Satan is cast to earth with his angels. Things get real bad on earth before Satan is chained in the "bottomless pit" for a millenium, ultimately ending up in the "lake of fire."
Is this tiny speck called planet earth that designated final battle ground for the demise of the enemy of the universe? Could this mysterious forbidden tree in in the garden have a higher purpose known only by God in this celestial warfare between good and evil? Are we like Job oblivious to the real reason we find ourselves and our world in such turmoil, that reason being a bigger celestial struggle involving the spiritual dimension? I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

buzsaw responds to me:

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Adam and Eve were punished because they became autonomous.

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True, and because they disobeyed the command of God.

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But they couldn't have because they hadn't eaten from the tree yet. Disobedience requires comprehension of the orders you are given. Since Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the tree yet, how could they possibly understand what god was saying? It isn't that they were stupid...it's that they were innocent. What possible reason could they have for obeying what god said? Especially when someone else comes along and tells you that he's lied to you (which he has)?

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The diabolical stategy of Satan

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Satan? When did Satan enter into it? Satan wasn't in the garden of Eden. It was just the serpent. And he told the truth. And he didn't tell Eve to eat from the tree. All he did was say that god's claim that they would die a physical death before the sun set should they eat of the tree was incorrect. Rather, they would become as gods, knowing good and evil.

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So the mysterious tree poses the question as to why God put it there in the first place if it was not to be allowed for food or another useful purpose.

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Precisely. Why would any competent person put something that he knows is off-limits in front of an innocent who doesn't know any better? If you have a precious Mhing vase you want to keep in pristine condition, do you put it on a wobbly pedestal in front of a toddler? Do you really think the toddler is going to understand "Don't touch"? And when you find the vase knocked over and destroyed, do you really blame the child for doing what children are expected to do or do you blame yourself for being stupid enough to put such a delicate object where an innocent could get at it?

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At best, we can only speculate on that one.

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But we can use logic to determine the consequences of it. God told a pair of innocents who were incapable of understand what he was talking about not to do something, they did it anyway as was to be expected, and then threw a hissy fit so wide in its fury that it splashed onto other innocent creatures like the serpent.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

What planet do you live on? Because here on planet Earth, where I live, it's obvious to the most casual observer that, largely, women beguile, and men are beguiled. (I would think that one might have noticed that after being around humans for 50+ years, but I guess not.)I mean, it's scientific fact that women are significantly more proficient at recognizing facial emotional states by sight. I imagine that extends towards all body language, and would render women considerably better-equipped to suss out subterfuge. Could you explain the deception involved? From my reading of the bible, it's obvious that the serpent is telling the truth. Eve and Adam become like Gods - God even says so - and they don't die (that day, anyway, like God said they would), but rather are made to know good and evil.Anyway, the amount that I suspect Paul didn't know about women would probably fill another two bibles. At least.

I am in near complete disagreement with you on this interpretation.While Adam and Eve were innocent, God did tell the truth and the snake surely lied.I believe the best interpretation is that the tree of knowledge was the tree of false knowledge (which is that of good and evil). To remain innocent in life, as well as not judging God's creation they had to remain free from such stupid (and subjective) ideas of OBJECTIVE right and wrong. That is why God told them not to eat of that tree or they would die.The serpent merely tricked Eve emotionally with the idea that all things which can be called knowledge is real and good (ie to know GOOD and EVIL being the highest knowledge and that on the level of God) and intellectually by twisting what "to die" meant (showing quite well that equivocation can lead to a lot of bad consequences).When they "ate" the fruit of the tree of Knowledge, God was proven right and they did die. No longer did they live in a paradise, but in a sort of hell, judging all things by elevating their personal tastes to an objective standard of good and evil. Or should I say "confusing" their tastes with absolute moral judgement.I realize my interpretation is an allegorical one and not literal--- so it won't please people who have limited their understanding of the passage to "a couple people ate a piece of fruit they weren't supposed to"--- but I think it is a much better read on the intention of the passage. It's much deeper in meaning anyway.------------------
holmes

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Anyway, the amount that I suspect Paul didn't know about women would probably fill another two bibles. At least.

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ROTFLMAO!!That was funny.Yeah, it's pretty clear that Paul was a VERY insecure male who really seemed to loathe women and wanted to make sure they never became more than the submissive, silent servants of men.Kind of like dogs. Only you can screw them, too.