Jesus The false prophet

Neither the parable of the wheat and the tares or the parable of the King judging between the sheep and the goats refer to the last judgment.Both are concerning judgment BEFORE the 1,000 millennial kingdom.The last judgment is the judgment of the great white throne AFTER the 1,000 millennial kingdom.You see, Christ carries out more than one judgment. And in this case we are seeing His act of judging before and after the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years.Matthew 25 concerns a judgment of nations living on the earth (not dead) at the time of His establishing His messianic kingdom in the holy land.The judgment which we may call "the last judgment" is not here in Matthew 25 before the millennium. The last judgment is that judgement of all the dead before the great white throne in Revelation 20.That is the judgment after the 1,000 years have concluded.The separation of the tares from the wheat is also a separation accomplished BEFORE the millennial kingdom. It too is not refering to the so-called "last judgment" of the great white throne in Revelation 20.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Wow, its been awhile. I stepped aside from this thread, bc of lack of time due to work. Now that I'm on strike, I have nothing but time.So Matthew 13 then, when is this judgement to occur?

Frako, this is just another example of why Biblical novices tend towards skepticism of the Bible's credibility as a record.You've quote mined this prophecy out of it's fulfillment context. You will note from the Wiki link that the transfiguration event happens in the very next chapter of Matthew, Matthew 17, in which Jesus shows a selected few of his apostles a glimpse of things pertaining to heaven, such as his miraculous Tranfiguration.Most studied Biblical scholars agree that this was the fulfillment of Jesus's prophecy.ABE: I forgot that I had already said essentially the same thing and others had aluded to it. Anyhow, perhaps this will add some credibility to the prophecy. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

Let me assume we are talking about the parable of the wheat and the tares found in Matthew 13:24-30. The Lord interprets most of it for us in verses 36-43.WHEN ? - " ... and the harvest is the consummation of the age; and the reapers are angels" (v.39) According to Christ's explanation, the harvest, when wheat and tares are seperated, is "the consummation of the age".
The age must be the church age. The age must be the age immediately following the preaching of the gospel throughout the earth.Then at the consummation of the church age, when the true disciples of Christ and the false disciples of Christ have been planted together and grown up together in the "field" of the world (v.38), is when the church age comes to a close.The church age comes to a close with the great tribulation and the second coming of Christ. The age following the church age is the age of the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens. In Revelation we are told that that age following the church age is for 1,000 years:We are told once - "And I he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, and bound him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:2)Then we are told a second time - "And cast him [Satan] into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed ..." (v.3)Then we are told a third time - \[b\]"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them ... the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus ... and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (v. 4)Then we are told a fourth time - "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." (v.5) Then we are told a fifth time - "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection ... they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reibn with Him for a thousand years." (v.6) Finally we are told a sixth time - "And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison." (v.7)So SIX times the Bible tells us that following the second coming of Christ at the end of the church age, there is the millennial kingdom on the earth for a thousand years.Therefore the consummation of the age in the parable of Matthew 13:24-30 is the end of the church age. It is not the end of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.The last judgment at the end of the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years in found in Revelation 20:11-15.

Hate to say it Buzz, as pointed out numerous times on this site, you're the one who actually distorts scripture. You make scripture say what you want it to say, instead of what it actually claims.Of course most "Biblical scholars" (fundies) state it refers to the transfiguration. They have no choice. Otherwise it would be a failed prophecy. Which it is.Matthew 16: 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.Please show me how the Transfiguration applies to the above?Does the Transfiguration have to do with his disciples and their souls? Does it deal with his fathers glory with angels? Does it have anything to do with mankind being rewarded for their deeds? Which of his disciples that he is talking to died before the transfiguration? After all, Jesus claims some will NOT be alive when this occurs.Now imagine Jesus was refering to his return. Would the verses above apply?Would the return of Jesus have an impact on the actions of people in regards to their souls?
Would angels be present?
Would mankind be punished/rewarded for their deeds?
If the return was to occur during that generation, would some disciples be dead, others alive?Read chapter 13, in which Jesus refers to his angels arriving. It most certainly does not have to with the Transfiguration.Chapter 25: 31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.Sounds very similar to chapter 16, doesnt it? Son of man comes in his glory, with angels. Are all the nations gathered before him during the Transfiguration? Is mankind seperated? This seperation, does it sound like some of mankind is being rewarded, while others are punished? Yes, it does. Now reread chapter 16.It has nothing to do with the Transfiguration.

No it does not. There are many meanings for age. Why are you bouncing around to Revelation, when the meaning is easily found in what the author of Matthew believed? Matthew 13 clearly states this "age" is to occur with angels seperating mankind, punishing some with fire, others with life.Matthew 16 also states this, yet adds that some disciples will be alive when this happens.Matthew 24, in fact clearly lays out when this age is. His disciples will be witness to it!Matthew 25 again talks about seperating mankind with angels present. Rewarding some, punishing others. Which again, refers back to Matthew 16. In fact, Matthew 24 after describing how his disicples would be witnesses to the end of the age, continues with his speech into chapter 25.

Jesus and the OT prophets, often made statements of this nature. Jesus was showing the disciples his glory as it would be at his coming to set up his messianic kingdom on earth.That's the only logical explanation and it makes sense, whether you choose to accept it or not.Jesus made other more specifically fulfilled prophecies which corroborate that he was a true prophet as well as the coming messiah. I have cited them in other threads and will allude to them in another message unrelated to this incident.

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That does not of course preclude Him being Messiah

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Can you elaborate what constitutes a Messiah? This term/premise was introduced in the Hebrew bible which lists a host of traits, deeds and actions which must occur, especially that it will result in the resurrection of the rightious dead - as opposed the Messiah, and that world peace will be seen - not in the future, but by and within such a Messiah's reign. Also, was Moses a Messiah of his time, and why so if yes or no?

You are ignoring not only context, but my questions. As well as avoiding the key issues.Your explanation of the Transfiguration does not make any sense.None of his disciples died.
Angels are not mentioned at the transfiguration.
Mankind was not rewarded/punished at the transfiguration.Not only that, other chapters state the same as chapter 16 about angles returning and rewarding/punishing mankind and are not dealing with the transfiguration.

Two specific prophecies of Jesus, showing that he was, indeed, a credible prophet are found in one or more of the gospel accounts of what is known as the Olivet Discourse, when Jesus was prophesying to his disciples that he would soon be crucified, but would return in the end times for the 2nd advent.I have alluded to these in the past, but will repeat them for this thread.The first is his prophecy in Luke 21:24, ASE which states:

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And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

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At the time Jesus prophesied, Jerusalem was occupied by Jews. He prophesied that the Jews would be scattered into the nations and that there would be a period of Gentile occupation of the city. His prophecy stated that there would come a time in the future when the Gentile occupation would end, implying that it would again be occupied by Jews. This prophecy is corroborated by several OT prophets.Another example of fulfillment of Jesus's Olivet Discourse prophecy is that in that discourse he prophesied that his gospel, which was, at that time, a brand new gospel, considered by many to be another little cult, would be proclaimed to all nations, at which period the end of the age would come.Lo and behold, for decades the Bible, including the NT has been the world's all time best seller consistently. Today, all nations of the planet have Jesus's prophesied gospel.These are just a couple of Jesus's more significant and phenomenal fulfilled prophecies. There are others.The fulfillment of either of the above being fulfilled at the time the prophecies were made would have been considered very
unlikely.King James Version:

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And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." ...

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A Messiah is the anointed one of God. Essentially he was to lead the Jewish nation against their enemies, establish Yahweh as King, (with likely the messiah holding that position on behalf of Yahweh), and rebuilding the temple.The peace that they believe they would have is because they would be militarily stronger than their pagan neighbours. That kind of peace is never forever.I don't agree that Moses was a messiah.Jesus fulfilled the role of Messiah but not in the way that they thought it would look. He established a kingdom that was worldwide with Himself as king but it is a kingdom of his followers that are to act as his agents of truth, mercy, love and forgiveness etc for the world.He said that the temple was no longer where you went for sacrifice and forgiveness but that He was the sacrifice and that He could forgive sin.

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A Messiah is the anointed one of God. Essentially he was to lead the Jewish nation against their enemies, establish Yahweh as King, (with likely the messiah holding that position on behalf of Yahweh), and rebuilding the temple.

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Instead, a holocaust occured, in what remains the greatest defense of faith by a people in all recorded history - not even mentioned in the Gospels. There are a host of factors which a Messiah was ordained to fulfill - but which never included his own sacrifice.

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The peace that they believe they would have is because they would be militarily stronger than their pagan neighbours. That kind of peace is never forever.

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Is it a great crime to pray for help when faced with anihilation by a brutal invader and a depraved Roman emperor who anointed himself as divine - how would you have responded had you been a monotheist?

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I don't agree that Moses was a messiah.

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The Hebrew bible affords him this title; Moses fulfilled the role of saving his people, and was also accorded as the Law Giver, which the world turns by today. Can you name a single law the world follows from the Gospels? Can you see Christianity existing or would there even be a Jesus had Moses not saved his people?

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Jesus fulfilled the role of Messiah but not in the way that they thought it would look. He established a kingdom that was worldwide with Himself as king but it is a kingdom of his followers that are to act as his agents of truth, mercy, love and forgiveness etc for the world.

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Only to those who follow, and the rest are doomed to a very hot place for a very long time - no matter what their deeds and actions may be? Is a bad Christian superior to a good non-christian?

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He said that the temple was no longer where you went for sacrifice

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I will be very impressed if you show such a proof - proven as existing 'BEFORE' - the temple fell, as we see in the prophesy of the dead sea scrolls. Else we can safely say it is a retrospective writing by Romans made centuries after the fact?

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and forgiveness but that He was the sacrifice and that He could forgive sin.

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This is in contradiction of what was said by God himself - which negates the attribute of God is Truth. What I see is that the facts say Moses was and remains the greatest human who ever lived - by period of time, impact and by cencus today. Do the math: 14M Jews, 1.5B Muslims and 2B Christians revere Moses. Does belief transcend reality?

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At the time Jesus prophesied, Jerusalem was occupied by Jews. He prophesied that the Jews would be scattered into the nations

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I may be giving you a hard time, but I am trying to figure out the coherence factor of what is the most powerful religious group. Your post has two BIG TIME errors.That prophesy was made in the Hebrew bible: the factor of precedence must prevail and be credited, else it is a lie by omission.You have to show this as being a contemporary declaration, which has not been made manifest, despite emerging in a time when writing was commonplace. Otherwise I too can prophesize the sun rose this morning.

It is the holocaust that Jesus forecast would happen if they kept on the path of violent revolution.As far as sacrifice is concerned the temple was the place to go to give sacrifice and be forgiven. Jesus took that sacrifice on the cross and forgave sins. He was and is the Temple of the living God. Certainly it's no crime to pray for help. I hope I haven't suggested that. The Jewish nation did indeed bravely face a brutal enemy. My own response probably would have been to be one of the revolutionaries but Jesus brought a different message and what he said would happen did. I agree with you about Moses. When I think of the messiah I think of the messiah that was prophesied in Isaiah and Daniel. The laws that the world follows from the Gospels are the laws that Jesus took from the Hebrew Scriptures. As to whether Christianity would exist without Moses is well above my pay grade. You'll have to ask God about that. That is not the message of the Gospels. Read the last part of Matthew 25. It has nothing in there about our theology. God is much more concerned about whether we have loving kind hearts than He is about our theology.Here is a C S Lewis quote from The Great Divorce.

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"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. "

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There is no proof but according to the Gospels Jesus talked a lot about forgiveness of sin. He also said that "I desire mercy not sacrifice". I contend that Jesus saw himself as the man through whom Yahweh visited His people. He was a temple replacement so to speak. This meant that He was the sacrifice and that He could forgive sin. Moses certainly made an impact. Abraham can put up the same numbers as well.

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It is the holocaust that Jesus forecast would happen if they kept on the path of violent revolution.

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A most perverse and obscene premise. Violent revolution? Judea was attacked and made to pay tribute and taxes - which she did for 150 years. Then depraved Nero introduced the heresy decree to worship his image in the temple - which the Jews rejected. Yet you call this violent revolution. Wow! Yet I see that the Jews have an obligation to assist Christians, who took on the Hebrew bible as their bedrock, but were unable to drop the dead donket of hellinism. Jews also failed in this regard with the Golden Calf story - they had help so their entire dna was altered, else they would not be around today. Those 40 years in the desert was a critical period.

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As far as sacrifice is concerned the temple was the place to go to give sacrifice and be forgiven. Jesus took that sacrifice on the cross and forgave sins. He was and is the Temple of the living God.

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This is Roman guile. Sacrifices in the temple did not negate wanton sins; this only applied to inadvertant sins via accidents. The temple fell with the Jews were tested of their belief with a war with Rome in the defense of belief - nothing to do with Jesus. Fact is, if the Jews never rejected Rome, all Christans would be worshipping Jupiter and Mars today. Do you even know why this greatest of all defenses of belief is not recorded in the Gospels - when it occured in their faces? The prophesy of the temple falling was made by King Solomon, not anyone else, thus was the arc hidden by him.

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Certainly it's no crime to pray for help. I hope I haven't suggested that. The Jewish nation did indeed bravely face a brutal enemy.

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You did not mention it. A million gave their lives and nation, throwing themselves on Roman swords - this has never been equalled in history. This was a greater holocaust than with the Nazis - while the Jews had no choice to save themselves during W.W.II, the Jews of Judea had - but they rejected it without their right to belief. Ths marks humanity's greatest sacrifice.

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My own response probably would have been to be one of the revolutionaries but Jesus brought a different message and what he said would happen did.

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So you would have stood with the Jews against Rome - not what the Gospel adherants advised as a crime by the Jews? This was the choice facing Jews - the notion of rebeliousness is perverse here.

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I agree with you about Moses. When I think of the messiah I think of the messiah that was prophesied in Isaiah and Daniel. The laws that the world follows from the Gospels are the laws that Jesus took from the Hebrew Scriptures. As to whether Christianity would exist without Moses is well above my pay grade. You'll have to ask God about that.

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There are no laws in the Gospels: name one? Christianity could not exist without Moses nor without the Jews challenging Rome.

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Only to those who follow, and the rest are doomed to a very hot place for a very long time - no matter what their deeds and actions may be? Is a bad Christian superior to a good non-christian?

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That is not the message of the Gospels. Read the last part of Matthew 25. It has nothing in there about our theology. God is much more concerned about whether we have loving kind hearts than He is about our theology.

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Both the Gospels and Quran have racist doctrines hinged on names instead of laws. One says no salvation but through me; the other says all who don't follow Mohammed are non-believers and a blessing to kill. In contrast, the Hebrew bible says this:"ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINS [COMMITS A CRIME] IT SHALL PAY - THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER"Which prevails today - check with your local sherriff?

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Here is a C S Lewis quote from The Great Divorce.

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"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. "
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Thy Will refers to Godly laws which tumbled down from Sinai, the greatest event in the universe. Of note is how Moses' name is not attached to a single law - they stand pristine by themselves, accepted as the law by all worldly institutions.

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IamJoseph writes:
I will be very impressed if you show such a proof - proven as existing 'BEFORE' - the temple fell, as we see in the prophesy of the dead sea scrolls. Else we can safely say it is a retrospective writing by Romans made centuries after the fact?

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There is no proof but according to the Gospels Jesus talked a lot about forgiveness of sin. He also said that "I desire mercy not sacrifice". I contend that Jesus saw himself as the man through whom Yahweh visited His people. He was a temple replacement so to speak. This meant that He was the sacrifice and that He could forgive sin.

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I contend that none can overturn what was said by God - not even God, based on the premise God is truth. This is proven when Christian never accept Islam - they demanded Jesus. Europe should have told the apostles the same - get me Moses to verify what you say! It resulted in God being made a cursory after thought - if even that. There is nothing merciful about calling those who observed God's laws for 2000 years before Christianity emerged, as born of the devil. A mysterious force brought this same example back to Europe: Islam told you what you told the Jews.

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Moses certainly made an impact. Abraham can put up the same numbers as well.

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Only with Moses did we hear of a direct revelation with millions present as witness and a hard copy bible emerging; this changed the universe while earning the wrach of every man made divine king. Consider the ultimate metaphoric question applying today:What if all three emerged with different messages, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. Place your bets!Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.