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Author Topic:   War and Morality. Al Qaeda v USA
frako
Member
Posts: 2402
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 121 of 175 (621950)
06-29-2011 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
06-29-2011 11:42 AM


Re: Distinctions
In todays world, how can we hold individuals or groups of individuals responsible for acts of war against nations?

Well in Europe a court in Hag deals with ware crimes and techincly one could call the attack on WTC a ware crime (deliberately targeting civilians).

The question is, is this a ware that al kaida started because al kaida is not a nation or country its an organisation.

If it is not a ware then they would haveto be tried as any other bomber or mass murderer the problem is that Osama is/was not a us citizen and never stepped on us soil so arresting him in his country is a bit like the english aresting the leader of the bloods in the us and taking him to england for trial. So you would haveto negotiate with their country for a co op capture and a fair trial in his country or an extradition to your country where he can face trial ....

The problem was you had an idiot for president who probably though al kaida is just a nother word for Afghanistan , so he wen with his gut reaction and said lets make a glass crater out of them somebody must have told him that the Russians or the Chinese wont be happy if he launches nukes so he did the next best thing all out ware with the "mighty" coalition of the willing.


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2402
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 122 of 175 (621952)
06-29-2011 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Nuggin
06-29-2011 1:33 PM


Re: Soft Targets vs Terrorism
They were flying planes into ships. They didn't care at all if they lived or died, so long as they killed us in the process.

Well techicaly the pilots got screwed either way they had a choice and had to sighn what they want to do fly a plane in to a ship for mother japan and the emperor or fly crazy hours till they get shot down. They would die either way the only choice they had is would they die as a national hero or some nameless pilot.


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jar
Member
Posts: 24784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 123 of 175 (621960)
06-29-2011 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Nuggin
06-29-2011 5:05 PM


Re: Soft Targets vs Terrorism
And of course to stay and try to change America.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 618 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 124 of 175 (621963)
06-29-2011 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by dronester
06-29-2011 4:47 PM


Re: Soft Targets vs Terrorism
I love history, can you please site some sources?? not being a smart ass.


"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by dronester, posted 06-29-2011 4:47 PM dronester has responded

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2013
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 125 of 175 (622011)
06-30-2011 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by fearandloathing
06-29-2011 5:48 PM


Americans as Bad Guys Always
fearandloathing writes:

I love history, can you please site some sources?? not being a smart ass.

Me too, already accepted for grad school again (to obvious relief of some here).

The issues brought up in the post you have responded to are worthy of further discussion in another thread. I know what two people (mom also) in the US Navy thought about those bombs and what they meant for overall casualties for both sides, directly.

My father, on Okinawa at the time, was heavily involved. Perhaps his survival should (at least from my perspective) be discussed in the existence thread.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Its us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1431
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 126 of 175 (622026)
06-30-2011 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by onifre
06-29-2011 1:41 AM


Re: Perspective
onifre writes:

Dogmafood writes:

Your own links point out that the Taliban are killing more civilians than anyone else.


No it doesn't. It says the Taliban are responsible for the most human rights violation. But then it goes on to say that that doesn't excuse NATO forces from their responsibility - which is mainly, to concern themselves with the human rights violations, which they have not done.

Yes it does.

quote:
...last year alone saw 2,200 civilians killed, over half in insurgent attacks and nearly 40 percent by foreign and Afghanforces.

Over half was actually over 60%.

I'm not trying to play down the attacks. Fuck 40,000, there were 3,000 and that's enough to be horrifying. But the fact is that Afghanistan, and especially the civilians, had NOTHING-ZERO-NADA to do with those attacks. The men who did died in the attacks. The masterminds should have been brought up on charges and tried in International court.
We should not be in Afghanistan AT ALL. So the death toll, while seemingly reasonable to you in a span of 10 years, should be ZERO since there is no reason to be there in the first place.

These people want to kill you Oni. All of us because we are not Muslim. Here are some quotes from Mullah Omar, the then leader of Afghanistan.

quote:
"I am convinced that God will defeat the big infidel and cause its downfall," he said on the 11th day of the US-led bombardment of Afghanistan.

"Death will definitely come one day; we don't care about this," he said, comparing the conflict to the jihad waged against Soviet forces during the 1980s.
"We just want to perish as Muslims...the goal is martyrdom," he said.



source

and from Mullah Manon Niazi Governor of Mazar-e Sharif speaking to a crowd in a mosque after the fall of mazar city.

quote:
" The policy of the Taliban is to exterminate the Hazaras"
Maulawi Mohammed Hanif, Taliban Commander announcing their policy to a crowd of 300
people summoned to a mosque [after killing 15,000 Hazaras people in a day]
" Hazaras are not Muslim. You can kill them. It is not a sin."

source

The free world should have invaded Afghanistan even if 9/11 didn't happen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by onifre, posted 06-29-2011 1:41 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Straggler, posted 06-30-2011 8:05 AM ProtoTypical has responded
 Message 135 by onifre, posted 07-01-2011 1:32 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9972
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 127 of 175 (622033)
06-30-2011 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by ProtoTypical
06-30-2011 6:39 AM


Re: Perspective
Dogma writes:

The free world should have invaded Afghanistan even if 9/11 didn't happen.

I am not in principle entirely against some sort of internationally agreed form of intervention where a particular regime is so horrific as to require action.

But how would you see the endpoint of invading Afghanistan? What ultimately needs to be achieved in order to justify the intervention in the first place?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by ProtoTypical, posted 06-30-2011 6:39 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ProtoTypical, posted 06-30-2011 12:10 PM Straggler has responded
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 07-01-2011 1:05 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
dronester
Member
Posts: 1123
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 128 of 175 (622059)
06-30-2011 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by fearandloathing
06-29-2011 5:48 PM


Re: Soft Targets vs Terrorism
F&L and Anglagard,

Of the many items, which particular items on my list do you find dubious? I am thinking at least some of the points were "un-contestable" to moral and intelligent people.

I read a particularly good detailed book about the surrender of Japan and "the bomb" many, many years ago. Pity I don't remember the title. But, a lot of info is now on the net if you want more details. See below.

In the meantime, I'll try finding the book title.

quote:
While publicly stating their intent to fight on to the bitter end, Japan's leaders at the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War (the "Big Six") were privately making entreaties to the neutral Soviet Union, to mediate peace on terms favorable to the Japanese.

On August 6, the Americans dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. Late in the evening of August 8, in accordance with Yalta agreements but in violation of the SovietJapanese Neutrality Pact, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan . . .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

There was also a great article that chronicled the exaggerated number of american casualties thought to have been lost IF the americans did invade Japan. Surely there would have been some casualities, but not near as many as people erroneously quote these days to soothe their collective guilt. I doubt I could find THAT article, but I'll try.

All very interesting. That so many americans "learn" incorrect history (cough, cough, Palin) seems to be uniquely, . . . um . . . american.

Europeans participants, ... do your schools teach your nation's ugly past, or do they whitewash like americans. Can you name an example?

Here's another good website read:
http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htm

quote:
However, American leaders continued to refuse to consider Japan's request that the surrender be conditional on the emperor remaining as the nation's head. Although some hard-core militants in the Japanese government vehemently opposed surrender until the very end, for the most part Japan had been willing for some time to accept the other demands of the Allies, such as complete disarmament, relinquishment of territory seized during the war, limitation of Japanese sovereignty to the four main islands and a few minor islands, temporary occupation of Japan by Allied troops, and justice for designated war criminals. How ironic it is that the Americans decided soon after the end of the war to retain the Japanese emperor as a symbol of continuity to maintain political stability.

quote:
Even if the Hiroshima bombing could be justified, the Nagasaki bombing has absolutely no justification, since America did not even give Japanese leaders enough time to evaluate the effects of the Hiroshima bombing and to reconsider their decision to not surrender.

http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htm

Edited by dronester, : No reason given.

Edited by dronester, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by fearandloathing, posted 06-29-2011 5:48 PM fearandloathing has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by caffeine, posted 07-01-2011 5:33 AM dronester has responded
 Message 138 by Modulous, posted 07-01-2011 9:33 AM dronester has responded
 Message 142 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2011 1:57 PM dronester has responded
 Message 147 by anglagard, posted 07-02-2011 1:53 AM dronester has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1431
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 129 of 175 (622064)
06-30-2011 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Straggler
06-30-2011 8:05 AM


Re: Perspective
But how would you see the endpoint of invading Afghanistan? What ultimately needs to be achieved in order to justify the intervention in the first place?

I dont know. Everyone wearing Nike and a McMohammeds on every corner?

The intervention is justified when the horrific-ness of the regime is abated. Define the objective, gather the willing, gird up the loins and be willing to stick it out knowing full well that it may take generations.

It may be that we are just too different to integrate. The most intolerable offences are at the heart of the Taliban ideology. Even moderate sharia law offends most non-muslim people. Of course, the fact that we let our women roam around with their ankles showing is offensive to the Taliban. It is nothing less than a clash of cultures.

I certainly dont know all the answers. I do think that it is unreasonable to vilify the US for its behaviour in the war with Afghanistan when 55 other nations also took part. Real countries with real armies and really smart people in positions of authority. How moral is it to abandon them to their fate?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Straggler, posted 06-30-2011 8:05 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by frako, posted 06-30-2011 12:20 PM ProtoTypical has responded
 Message 134 by onifre, posted 07-01-2011 1:18 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded
 Message 137 by Straggler, posted 07-01-2011 7:13 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2402
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 130 of 175 (622067)
06-30-2011 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ProtoTypical
06-30-2011 12:10 PM


Re: Perspective
and every one of those 55 countries is looking for an excuse to get their troops back.

Even my country wants their 20 soldiers back


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ProtoTypical, posted 06-30-2011 12:10 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
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dronester
Member
Posts: 1123
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 131 of 175 (622070)
06-30-2011 12:38 PM


The Bomb, by Howard Zinn
I am pretty sure the exaggerated casualty figures were detailed in an article from this book, The Bomb, by Howard Zinn. Will continue to look for it.

quote:
The Bomb, published to coincide with the 65th anniversary of the dropping of the two atomic bombs on Japan in 1945, collects two of Zinns previously published short essays on war and resistance to war.

Quoting numerous sources and studies, the first essay makes a strong case against the dropping of the atomic bombs, highlighting how subsequently leaked documents show the US knew the Japanese were close to surrendering in August 1945. Citing the historian Barton Bernstein Zinn notes that the oft-repeated figure of one million US deaths from a possible invasion of Japan was simply pulled out of the air.


http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htm


  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1431
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 132 of 175 (622071)
06-30-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by frako
06-30-2011 12:20 PM


Re: Perspective
Even my country wants their 20 soldiers back

More loin girding!


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 7417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 133 of 175 (622135)
07-01-2011 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Straggler
06-30-2011 8:05 AM


Re: Perspective
Straggler writes:

But how would you see the endpoint of invading Afghanistan?

The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan


This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member
Posts: 4853
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 134 of 175 (622136)
07-01-2011 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by ProtoTypical
06-30-2011 12:10 PM


Re: Perspective
How moral is it to abandon them to their fate?

As moral as abandoning all the other countries we've abandoned to their fate.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ProtoTypical, posted 06-30-2011 12:10 PM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member
Posts: 4853
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 135 of 175 (622138)
07-01-2011 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by ProtoTypical
06-30-2011 6:39 AM


Re: Perspective
Over half was actually over 60%.

It is still the fault of the US that this is taking place.

These people want to kill you Oni. All of us because we are not Muslim.

I'm more frightened of the blacks.

Look, I get that they want me dead, but so what? Al Qaeda has less members than any militia here in the US. 13,000 civilians killed to stop such a small force - at the cost of BILLIONS lets not forget - while our economy falls apart, doesn't seem worth it.

The free world should have invaded Afghanistan even if 9/11 didn't happen.

The US should have gone into Pakistan and Saudi Arabia i It's where the hijackers where from and where Bin Laden was found, respectively.

Afghanistan was one of the worse countries in that area, and since our invasion, has become worse yet. That could have been avoided and Bin Laden still been murdered...errr, I mean killed.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
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