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Author Topic:   The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 106 of 1485 (628980)
08-15-2011 2:25 AM


Gay Pool
So, anyone taking bets on which gay disaster is going to upset the Republican pool first?
Rick Perry gets officially outed with proof.
Marcus Bachmann gets caught on video doing something with one of Michelle's male staffers
I think it's pretty neck and neck at this point

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-15-2011 3:20 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 108 of 1485 (628983)
08-15-2011 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Dr Adequate
08-15-2011 3:20 AM


Re: Gay Pool
Quite so. So what odds will you give me on Rick Perry getting caught with Marcus Bachmann?
Interesting.
Probably good odds since they are both husky boys. Have trouble seeing them together.
However, if they decide to have a joint "pray the gay away" session, all bets are off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-15-2011 3:20 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 270 of 1485 (637900)
10-18-2011 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by crashfrog
10-18-2011 3:12 PM


Another question would be: if corporations didn't have legal personhood, how would you propose to charge them with crimes?
The real question is, how would you propose to sentence them for crimes in which they are found guilty?
If a corporation knowingly causes the deaths of innocent people, how do you put it in jail for the rest of its life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 3:12 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 8:14 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 275 of 1485 (637952)
10-18-2011 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by crashfrog
10-18-2011 8:14 PM


How would you determine that a corporation acted with malice aforethought while none of its employees did?
You wouldn't have to prove that.
The corporation enjoys the rights of individuals, it should endure the penalties as well.
If a corporation engages in an illegal activity and gets caught, ALL employees should be subject to the criminal penalty.
If you want you can scale the penalty based on how high up the food chain you were, but I want people behind bars.
Threatening to dissolve the corporation is useless. I have friends who are corporations for the sole purpose of protecting themselves from litigation. If someone tries to sue, the corporation owns exactly 1 clip board and 1 pen. They just dissolve it and spend $50 to file for a new one.
It's all the rights and protections, with none of the penalties or threats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 8:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 10:48 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 278 of 1485 (637971)
10-18-2011 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by crashfrog
10-18-2011 10:48 PM


And working through a corporate shell would do absolutely nothing to shield them from criminal prosecution, which is what we're all talking about.
Except that you already said that the primary threat of criminal prosecution to the "corporation" is to dissolve it.
What I am saying is that a great number of corporations are founded specifically to be dissolved in case of trouble.
This is how it works in my industry.
I am going to produce a TV show. I set up a corp called "Nuggin TV Show Inc". You hire Nuggin TV Show Inc to make the show. I am an employee of NTSI.
The show gets made and is successful.
At some point someone comes along and claims that the show was his idea to begin with and decides to sue me, the network, the studio, the stars, etc.
He can't sue me directly, since my name doesn't appear on any of the contracts. I'm just an employee of one of the companies involved.
He sues NTSI instead. NTSI surrenders it's assets "A folder, a pencil, a clipboard, a folding chair" and then dissolves.
I form "Nuggin TV Show two Inc" and go find my next job.
People do this ALL the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 10:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 11:28 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 280 of 1485 (637975)
10-18-2011 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by crashfrog
10-18-2011 11:28 PM


And you've not yet explained why it's necessary - why does "the corporation" have to be subject to criminal penalties when we can simply charge the employees who acted criminally?
Because it's frequently impossible to determine which employees acted criminally.
Cigarette companies have increased nicotine and hidden the fact that cigarettes cause cancer. This was going on for decades.
Which specific employees should be prosecuted for this? Do you have any idea? If the corp refuses to give up names? If the lawyers cite "work product"?
We KNOW the corporation engaged in these activities. Why not punish it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 11:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 11:53 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 281 of 1485 (637976)
10-18-2011 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by crashfrog
10-18-2011 11:28 PM


Sure he can sue you, directly. The corporation didn't violate his copyright; you did. You can assign the rights to the show you supposedly created to the corporation, but unless your corporation didn't pay you
I'm an employee of the corporation. My name does not appear on any contracts.
I'm producing a show, I haven't violated anyone's copyright at all.
My corp is paid by the studio to make sure that script X is produced. I didn't write it.
I'm an employee. I haven't entered into any contracts. I'm simply doing my job organizing an ongoing business venture that the corporation entered into. Totally innocent of any wrong doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 11:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:07 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 283 of 1485 (637978)
10-19-2011 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by crashfrog
10-18-2011 11:53 PM


But you're not talking about punishing a corporation, you're talking about criminal sanctions against the people who worked for it, regardless of whether or not they're personally guilty of crimes.
Absolutely.
If you are an employee of a corporation which is doing the wrong thing under the current system, it's in your best interest to hide it and pocket the extra cash.
If you are an employee of a corporation which you even suspect MIGHT be considering doing the wrong thing under a system where you, the mail room, the secretaries and everyone else can be executed for it, you'll either make sure that the corp is not doing the wrong thing or you and everyone else will quit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by crashfrog, posted 10-18-2011 11:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:09 AM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 286 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:10 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 289 of 1485 (637984)
10-19-2011 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by crashfrog
10-19-2011 12:07 AM


Who wrote it? If its was produced by the corporation, and the corporation's only employee was you, then perforce you're the one who wrote it and therefore you're the one who violated the copyright.
A salesmen at the car lot did not build the car.
The guy who built the car did not design the car.
A producer does not write the script. The writer does.
Your name appears on the contract between you and your company, the one that allows you to be paid. And you have to be paid, right, because the studio pays your company for the TV show but somehow it has only a folding chair as assets. Where did those assets go? Obviously, they went to you
So, if I want to sue Ford for make a crappy car, I should sue Murray the Janitor at Ford Headquarters because he gets paid by Ford with the money they made off selling me the car?
That doesn't make sense. How is Murray directly responsible for this?
So, there's a paper trail between you "producing" a script that violates someone else's copyright,
You clearly don't understand what "producing" means.
Therefore you've profited from the violation;
So has Murray the Janitor.
and NugginCo has reported to the IRS that you were paid such and such amount for that work.
And Ford reported to the IRS that Murray was paid such and such.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:07 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:30 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 290 of 1485 (637985)
10-19-2011 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by crashfrog
10-19-2011 12:10 AM


Bringing it back to the topic
I keep asking and you keep evading the question. What does it mean for a corporation to "do" something?
Please be specific.
Okay, here's an example.
The supreme court has ruled that it is perfectly legal for a corporation to donate unlimited amounts of money to a republican candidate.
That is a corporation "doing" something. What it is doing is buying a politician.
If it's NOT the one doing it, then the USSC decision makes no sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:10 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:32 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 296 of 1485 (637991)
10-19-2011 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by crashfrog
10-19-2011 12:30 AM


quit acting like the only way to talk to me is to contradict literally everything I say. That relentless contrarianism never worked for Holmes and he was better at it than you are.
I'm not contradicting everything you say and I'm way better at it than Holmes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:30 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2483 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 297 of 1485 (637992)
10-19-2011 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by crashfrog
10-19-2011 12:32 AM


Re: Bringing it back to the topic
Walk me through what the "corporation" is doing. When the corporation writes a check to the Republican candidate for office, how does it hold the pen? Be specific.
They don't actually write a check. They transfer money from one bank account to another electronically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2011 12:32 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
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