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Author Topic:   A Test for Intelligent Design Proponents
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 115 (263481)
11-27-2005 10:21 AM


A Test for Intelligent Design Proponents
by Timothy Chase
Introduction
If intelligent design were to be brought into elementary and high school classrooms, students would be taught that there are some people who believe that an intelligent designer of some kind was needed to create life (and/or guide its development) and that others believe that life as we know it was the result of a natural evolutionary process -- where perhaps God made the universe in such a way that this process could have occurred. This would no doubt be touched on a number of different times throughout their education. But the belief in God is a religious belief, and this naturally enough could not be touched on at any point. However, they would also learn about the nature of empirical science and how it requires theories with testable hypotheses -- simply as part of their normal science education. And by teaching intelligent design along with evolutionary biology, students would learn "critical thinking skills" -- or at least this is what proponents of intelligent design claim.
Like many others, I take the view that by the "intelligent designer," the vast majority of proponents of this idea are disingenuously referring to God in a way that is intended to get around the Separation of Church and State, whether their ambitions reach any further or not. But in my view, the more ardent promoters of intelligent design intend to use science classes for introducing young earth and old earth creationist "criticism" of the natural sciences under the banner of "critical thinking skills." The more ambitious hope to turn science classes into a platform from which to begin the launch of what is essentially an anti-scientific, fundamentalist religious and political ideology -- beginning with a pseudo-scientific case for the existence of God.
In contrast, there are a great many religious individuals who believe that God is not something which one can fit inside a test-tube, and that it is a mistake to treat the belief in God as an empirical hypothesis to be tested inside a lab or a class devoted to science. They believe that the very act of attempting to demonstrate the existence of God is itself destructive of true faith. Their views will be one of the first victims in the effort to bring intelligent design into our classrooms. However, proponents of intelligent design wish us to believe that the intelligent designer isn't necessarily God, and that they merely wish to teach "critical thinking skills." So let us assume for the moment that the proponents of intelligent design are sincere in their desire to improve education.
A Mini-Seminar on Natural Science
If intelligent design or its creationist criticism of natural science is to be taught alongside evolutionary biology as a means of promoting "critical thinking skills," then there is an additional way of teaching such skills which we should consider: tying together all the major branches of hard science, including physics, biology, astronomy, geology, and chemistry in an integrated series of lessons. Typically, students take various classes, but no real emphasis is placed on seeing how the material from one class or one year is related to another. In contrast, students should see the material from different classes or grades as different pieces in the same puzzle and should be encouraged to put the pieces of the puzzle together. In this way, science teachers could demonstrate the unity of science and teach students further critical thinking skills -- perhaps the most valuable set of lessons students will ever learn. (Proponents of intelligent design should appreciate this to the extent that they actually value the development of such cognitive abilities. Moreover, it could be of real benefit for students in tomorrow's world.)
This could be part of senior year -- a kind of mini-seminar required for all students in order for them to graduate. Since not all students will have taken courses in all of the hard sciences, it couldn't be done in a single day, though. I believe teachers would need one class period for the introduction to or review of each branch, a class period cutting across several different branches, and then another class period for reviewing the whole of what students will have learned. Handouts could be made available, and both reading and homework assigned.
What follows is a tentative schedule, including the material which would be covered for each day.
Day One: students will focus on elements of physics, learning about heat, temperature, pressure, electricity, light, and polarization.
Day Two: students will focus on elements of biology, where students would learn the importance of proteins, amino acids, peptides, the nucleic acids we call DNA and RNA, lipids and cell structure, and of course, eukaryotes, bacteria, archea (including some specific extremophiles), viruses and even viroids (the last of which are nothing more than strands RNA containing instructions on how to replicate themselves).
Day Three: students will focus on elements of astronomy, learning about stars, planets, comets, and the early formation of the solar system, including how the inner planets were at one time heavily bombarded by comets.
Day Four: students will focus on elements of geology, learning about minerals such as borax, volcanic sea vents, the early earth and its reductive atmosphere (i.e., that it lacked corrosive oxygen -- something which we discovered just recently).
Day Five: students will focus on elements of chemistry, work with autocatalytic chemical reactions, repeat the experiments of Miller and Urey in creating amino acids, form stable ribose (the only essential component in nucleic acid other than amino acids) using borax, and create left-handed molecules using polarized light. (If some chemistry experiments would take longer than the period of time available to the class, then an outside chemistry class could be coordinated with the seminar to perform the same set of experiments, and students could be brought in to view the approach and results.)
Day Six: students will touch on topics which could include the presence of organic compounds in comets, the hydrophobic character of some proteins, how lipid bubbles form in volcanic sea vents and will naturally encapsulate such proteins in cell-like structures, Spiegelman's Monster and Manfred Eigen's experiment where a mere enzyme formed rapidly self-replicating viral RNA when provided with the appropriate nutrients, and how some RNA viruses create DNA using their RNA as a template for the purpose of replication.
Day Seven: students will review what they have learned from each of the branches -- in order to stress the unity of scientific knowledge, and then take time to relax in an informal environment and share with each other what they have learned the past six days. If they are thoughtful, they should see a great many connections, particularly if dialogue is encouraged, as it can be one of the most powerful tools in education.
As a tentative title for the course, I would suggest calling it "The Unity of Science: an investigation into the roots of biological systems in our world."
In Conclusion
What happens outside of school would be entirely up to the parents. Those who want to teach their children that God as the intelligent designer created life could continue to do so. Those who want to teach their children that God simply made a world in which life could arise and evolve naturally could continue to do so. Those who want to teach their children a less religious view of the world could continue to do so. And everyone's religious beliefs would be respected.
I am opposed to teaching intelligent design in science classes, and I will continue to oppose it. But if proponents of intelligent design genuinely value our children's science education and the development of their critical thinking skills, they should appreciate this integrative, scientific mini-seminar, and we should expect their full support. Personally, I do not believe that proponents of intelligent design will support this course. However, if they insist upon having intelligent design taught alongside evolutionary biology as "a means of teaching skills in critical thinking," then I believe that the outlined mini-seminar should be insisted upon as proof of their sincerity.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-28-2005 05:01 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 11-27-2005 7:56 PM TimChase has replied
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2005 8:08 PM TimChase has replied
 Message 13 by TimChase, posted 11-28-2005 11:31 AM TimChase has not replied
 Message 14 by TimChase, posted 11-28-2005 2:59 PM TimChase has not replied
 Message 37 by Heathen, posted 11-28-2005 6:28 PM TimChase has replied
 Message 52 by TimChase, posted 11-29-2005 7:36 PM TimChase has not replied
 Message 53 by TimChase, posted 11-29-2005 7:38 PM TimChase has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 115 (263603)
11-27-2005 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
11-27-2005 8:08 PM


Glad you like it...
I am glad you like it.
I have presented an essay here before, but more recently I became a part of the DebunkCreation email list with Lenny Flank. In any case, I have gone ahead and written an introduction for the readers at:
Message 13
I may be wrong, but I think this essay may generate some discussion...
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-28-2005 11:47 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2005 8:08 PM RAZD has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 115 (263613)
11-27-2005 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
11-27-2005 7:56 PM


Re: False idea of Separation of Church from State

If the creationists do hope to teach creationist criticism of evolution (it's not criticism of the "natural sciences" despite the usual false equation you make between the sciences and evolutionism)...
Well, gee. We are talking not just about evolutionary biology, but astronomy (i.e., age of the earth, solar system, universe, etc.), geology (i.e., age of the earth, whether or not Noah's flood occured), physics (i.e., carbon dating, ...), chemistry (for example, the formation of "irreducibly" complex molecules) -- and I could certainly go on.

... they are not in any way violating the First Amendment but merely exercising the rights that were originally conferred by it.
I take it this was a different thread.

HOWEVER, I think Christians should not fight this problem by forcing any form of creationism on the public schools.
I am glad you see it my way. Now if you can help convince creationists and proponents of intelligent design to see it the same way, then perhaps there will be no need for the course which I have outlined (as I have indicated in the article itself).
By the way, it is good to see you again!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 11-27-2005 7:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 115 (263617)
11-27-2005 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
11-27-2005 8:08 PM


Your thread...
I will have to check it out.
Lenny is just getting back, and we have had a bit of a firestorm while he was gone (over differences in religious belief -- arghhh!!), so I think I will check out the aftermath. Still need to get a client out for my company, but I will check back a little later.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-27-2005 08:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
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TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 115 (263747)
11-28-2005 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TimChase
11-27-2005 10:21 AM


Deleted
Deleted
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-29-2005 07:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TimChase, posted 11-27-2005 10:21 AM TimChase has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 115 (263800)
11-28-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TimChase
11-27-2005 10:21 AM


Moved
Moved to:
Message 53
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-29-2005 07:44 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TimChase, posted 11-27-2005 10:21 AM TimChase has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Omnivorous, posted 11-28-2005 4:25 PM TimChase has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 115 (263855)
11-28-2005 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AdminNWR
11-28-2005 5:21 PM


Re: Can we get back on topic
Funny thing...
I seem to remember Faith making the same kind of arguments regarding the Separation of Church and State three or four months ago. The more things change, the more they remain the same, I guess.
Anyway, thank you, AdminNWR.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by AdminNWR, posted 11-28-2005 5:21 PM AdminNWR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 11-28-2005 5:53 PM TimChase has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 115 (263885)
11-28-2005 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Heathen
11-28-2005 6:28 PM


Glad you like it!
Particularly like your 7-day-seminar format.
Glad you like it! That was one of the symmetries I was aiming for -- thought that particular symmetry might help people -- particularly on the other side of the aisle -- get my meaning. They are one of the audiences I hope the essay is able to speak to.

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 Message 37 by Heathen, posted 11-28-2005 6:28 PM Heathen has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 115 (264293)
11-29-2005 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TimChase
11-27-2005 10:21 AM


The Idea Behind this Essay...
When I last presented a paper in this forum, I was told by one of the administrators that the paper was so complete that he was afraid it didn't really leave anything to discuss. Nevertheless, there was a great deal of discussion. In part, this was due to my taking a rather hands-on approach. In part, it was thanks to Faith who -- just as the discussion was winding down -- managed to breath new life into it.
Nevertheless, while I was quite happy with the discussion, I felt that there were some aspects of the paper that were left unexplored. Moreover, when Faith resucitated the discussion, I felt almost as if we had moved on to a different topic altogether. And at the same time, I felt as if I was at least partly involved in this shift.
For this reason, I have chosen to present a somewhat different kind of essay this time around.
In the essay itself, I speak of a puzzle which students are supposed to put together, presumably in order to achieve greater understanding. But the essay itself consists of several puzzles. However, different puzzles are aimed at different age groups, or in some cases, different audiences. In the case of these puzzles, it is a little bit of both.
At the same time, one should probably distinguish between the objective of a puzzle and its purpose. The objective of a puzzle is to solve it, and this is the goal placed before the intended puzzle solver. But the purpose of a puzzle is the goal of the puzzle maker. The purpose may be as simple as providing people with a source of enjoyment, or it may be as mercenary as that of making money. So for the purpose of discussion, I would suggest three interrelated questions:
1. What are the puzzles in this essay?
2. Who are the intended puzzle-solvers?
3. What is the purpose of the puzzle?
Because this essay involves a number of different puzzles, it should be a little more interactive. As such, the involvement of Faith and I will probably be a little less important or needed, but I will still get involved to some extent, as I suspect so will Faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TimChase, posted 11-27-2005 10:21 AM TimChase has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 115 (264294)
11-29-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TimChase
11-27-2005 10:21 AM


Articles on a Few Relevant Stories
Early Earth Reducing Atmosphere
Calculations favor reducing atmosphere for early Earth
Was Miller-Urey experiment correct?
Public release date: 7-Sep-2005
Calculations favor reducing atmosphere for ea | EurekAlert!
RNA and Ribozyme
Life's Origins Were Easier Than Was Thought
Date: 2005-09-19
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2005/09/050916075214.htm
Biochemists Gain Crystal-Clear Insight Into 'Ancient' Enzyme
Date: 1998-05-15
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/1998/05/980515080552.htm
Molecular Midwives Hold Clues To The Origin Of Life
Date: 2004-04-04
http://www.sciencedaily.com/print.php?url=/releases/2004/...
Ribose (other than amino acids, the one essential component in nucleic acids)
UF STUDY SUGGESTS LIFE ON EARTH SPRANG FROM BORAX MINERALS
Jan. 8, 2004
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2004news/earthstart.htm
Peptides (not a really big fan, but I am including this nevertheless)
2004
Volcano gas, amino acids make peptides
Study is important in understanding transformation of monomers into polymers
By Graciela Flores
Oct. 8, 2004
http://www.the-scientist.com/news/20041008/02
1993 (including it for historical value)
From amino acids to prebiotic active peptides:
A chemical reconstitution
Andr C Brack
Pure & Appl. Chem., Vol. 65, No. 6, pp. 1141-1151,1993.
http://www.iupac.org/publications/pac/1993/pdf/6506x1143.pdf
Note: More to be added in a later post...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TimChase, posted 11-27-2005 10:21 AM TimChase has not replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 115 (264315)
11-29-2005 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
11-29-2005 7:52 PM


Nice Try...
Nice try.
Yes -- in the original essay, one sentence mentions the dishonesty of those who attempt to circumvent the "Separation of Church and State" by means of the introduction of ID. But this is not an argument for or against the "Separation of Church and State." If you wish to argue that this is a mischaracterization of ID, that would be one thing, but arguing for or against the "Separation of Church and State" is quite another.
I can understand if those who support either creationism or intelligent design would like to shift the topic: for the past several years (decades?), you have been able to play the offensive, whereas the pro-Evolution side has been playing defensive. This article is about changing the rules of the game. This article is about the pro-Evolution side taking the offensive -- taking the game to you.
If after this point, someone attempts to argue the "Separation of Church and State," I would ask that all educated individuals refrain from responding. To respond is to grant that individual the power to determine the topic.
Faith was the first to address church/state separtation. Why? Because it was in response to the OP statement below. It's not easy to address the topic aside from these issues, especially when the view of the OP author on church/state is expressed. Is his viewpoint suppose to prevail with no oportunity for response/debate?
Like many others, I take the view that by the "intelligent designer," the vast majority of proponents of this idea are disingenuously referring to God in a way that is intended to get around the Separation of Church and State, whether their ambitions reach any further or not.
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-29-2005 08:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2005 7:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 9:06 PM TimChase has replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 115 (264329)
11-29-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
11-29-2005 9:06 PM


Two Questions for Faith
There is no shifting of any topic here, merely a perfectly legitimate answer to your slander of the IDers as dishonest.
Two Questions for Faith
1. Are you arguing that the intelligent designer isn't God?
2. Are you arguing that while it is God, the ID-proponents quite honestly concede that it is God?
Message 1
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-29-2005 09:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 9:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 9:26 PM TimChase has replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 115 (264342)
11-29-2005 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
11-29-2005 9:26 PM


Re: Nice Try...
But it is known that many IDers do believe in the Biblical God....
I am not asking whether it is the biblical God.
... Others may believe in other religious views of God. It doesn't matter. All creationist views can be accommodated by ID.
But when you accuse them of trying to sneak God into the classroom, you need to be answered that there is nothing wrong with ANYBODY's believing God belongs in the classroom and everywhere else in American society.
I now have two questions:
1. Would you admit that the good majority of proponents of Intelligent Design fully believe that the intelligent designer is God, and that by bringing intelligent design into the classroom, they would be bringing God into the classroom?
2. Is intelligent design a form of creationism?
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-29-2005 10:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 9:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 10:49 PM TimChase has replied
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2005 11:30 PM TimChase has replied
 Message 99 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2005 6:48 PM TimChase has replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 115 (264364)
11-30-2005 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
11-29-2005 10:49 PM


Re: Nice Try...
I had asked:
I now have two questions:
1. Would you admit that the good majority of proponents of Intelligent Design fully believe that the intelligent designer is God, and that by bringing intelligent design into the classroom, they would be bringing God into the classroom?
2. Is intelligent design a form of creationism?
Faith responded:
I'm not a follower of ID so I'm not going to try to answer for them any further. I've said what I've gleaned from what I've run across here and there and that's about it.
Then perhaps you don't know enough about them to get offended on their behalf.
Faith wrote:
I think you should concede that you can't read minds and judge motives...
I go on what I read -- in what people write. If you wish, you may call that "reading minds." "Of Panda's and People" started out as a "scientific creationism" textbook. The changes to it were little more than a "find" and "replace," substituting "intelligent designer" for "God." Sounds to me like a case of being disingenuous. Sounds to me like an instance of dishonesty. And it sounds like a repackaging of creationism.
Faith wrote:
... and then this thread can move on to what is of most interest to you.
I think this is already getting interesting...
This message has been edited by TimChase, 11-30-2005 01:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 11-29-2005 10:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 11-30-2005 2:36 AM TimChase has replied

  
TimChase
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 115 (264367)
11-30-2005 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Buzsaw
11-29-2005 11:30 PM


Re: The Intelligent Designer
1. Which God? Jehovah, Allah, Brahma, et al? God, perse is not a religion. The students of various religions may apply the designer to whatever they wish. It's a given that any designer of the universe would be a supreme intelligent and powerful being. In our nation, most proponents of ID worship and believe in the god, Jehovah to be the supreme designer and the Biblical record to be the history of origins. If this were set up in Iraq, I suppose Allah would be that designer god and the Quran the record book. In India perhaps the designer would be Brahma
Edited to add that in a class of mixed ID proponents, the student could apply the ID argument to their respective personal persuasion as to the designer.
I was only asking whether the "intelligent designer" is God, not about the specific beliefs regarding this God. But whether you are an adherent of Islam or Judaism, your belief in God is a religious belief. Am I correct?
2. ID would be a form of creationism, yes.
Well, at least you are being more straight-forward about this than the authors of "Of Panda's and People." Honesty. I like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 11-29-2005 11:30 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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