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Author Topic:   What is the creation science theory of the origin of light?
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 1801 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 1 of 297 (621768)
06-28-2011 4:36 AM


Thread proposal is in Message 5.

I have noticed nearly all of the debates on all evolution vs creation debates seems to be people defending very small elements of evolutionary theory. The creationists have a large body of work with listed scientific theory fully explained to pick apart. As creationists are trying to enter the argument from a scientific perspective, they would need to provide a similar model. They would need to supply a a working theory of what god actually did when he said 'let there be light'. I would like to see their theory, including back up data and researched, peer reviewed work on each of the steps in the Genesis creation week. If we are to have a scientific debate between creation and evolution, then both scientific groups of theories need to be stated in the same manner.

Is there any group of creationists who would be able to point me to this resource or supply one? (read the bible is not sufficient)

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : Topic was too broad

Edited by Admin, : Admin change.

Edited by Admin, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add "(FINAL MESSAGE TIME)" to topic title.

Edited by Admin, : Remove "Final Message" note from the title.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 06-28-2011 7:39 AM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 292 by aman777, posted 01-28-2013 11:50 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12425
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 2 of 297 (621769)
06-28-2011 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
06-28-2011 4:36 AM


Thread proposal is in Message 5.

You might want to check your second sentence.

This topic proposal has the potential to be far too broad. While you do ask a specific question about descendants of Noah, you also touch on other things, like a catalog of creationist theory.

If you rewrite your proposal (click the edit button for your Message 1) to focus just on the issue of Noah's descendants then it could be reconsidered for promotion. Please post a note when you're done and I'll take another look.

Edited by Admin, : Admin change.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-28-2011 4:36 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-28-2011 8:39 AM Admin has responded

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 1801 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 3 of 297 (621770)
06-28-2011 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
06-28-2011 7:39 AM


Question updated
Thread proposal is in Message 5.

Hello,

I have rephrased my question.

I am interested in finding out what the scientific basis for creationist theories are. I know there are lots of pages devoted to combating current scientific theory. Lots of the current flood theories of geology are examples. They seem to be only debating about subjects that they choose. I would like to take some of the things that they do not discuss and see what they say.

Thank you

Edited by Admin, : Admin change.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 06-28-2011 7:39 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 06-28-2011 10:43 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12425
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 4 of 297 (621771)
06-28-2011 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Butterflytyrant
06-28-2011 8:39 AM


Re: Question updated
Thread proposal is in Message 5.

Hi Butterflytyrant,

I understand your goal, but you're proposing a thread where literally any topic within the creation/evolution debate could be discussed. You need to propose a topic that is specific and that fits into one of the science forums, not one that spans all of them. Just write a proposal for some area of creation science where you'd like to see a specific theory, flood geology, for example.

Edited by Admin, : Admin change.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-28-2011 8:39 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-28-2011 10:52 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 1801 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 5 of 297 (621772)
06-28-2011 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
06-28-2011 10:43 AM


Scientific theory of Genesis
Please supply the scientific theory of how God created light when he said "let there be light".

Please include the testable elements of the process by which light was created.

include evidence supporting this theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 06-28-2011 10:43 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Chuck77, posted 06-29-2011 2:46 AM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 12 by Minority Report, posted 06-29-2011 4:46 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 06-29-2011 5:33 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-29-2011 11:59 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded
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 Message 258 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-04-2011 3:55 AM Butterflytyrant has responded
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 Message 296 by justatruthseeker, posted 05-06-2013 8:54 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12425
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 6 of 297 (621774)
06-28-2011 9:01 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The Theory thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Chuck77
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 7 of 297 (621807)
06-29-2011 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Butterflytyrant
06-28-2011 10:52 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
Do you want us to propose one? Are you forcing us to come up with a "light" Theory? There isn't one that I know of. If you're trying to say we have no proof of what the Bible says fine, but until someone proposes a theory for "and God said" then it's silly to suggest we propose one for you just so you can "point and laugh".

We could do the same thing to you (i.e. who are the original common ancestors etc.) but there's enough out there already that will last a lifetime of debating. I can't think of a theory for creationism that hasn't already been brought up. Maybe you should ask Creationist to try and explain already existing "theorys" (ID, The Great flood, etc.) that you don't agree with.

Just my thoughts on that, but for the hell of it i'll try to amuse you.

God said let there be light. The mechanism behind this "light" is the Holy Spirit. The Holy spirit is the Natural Selection of Creationism. God said, and the Holy spirit moved, The Holy Spirit is the "creative force" in the trinity. All matter which was Created is the result of the Holy Spirit moving on God's command. (again im just amusing you, it's not scientific, so don't ask me to prove it, I can't) the result was light. I guess if you were gonna argue the point (which has no basis scientifically, hence there not being a theory) you could say was light designed or "banged" into existance by chance? If your one for using your imagination then you probably like to think it just happened for no reason. On the other hand, an intelligent Creator would see the need for light in the universe and therefore...supplied it.

Sorry, it's the best I got.

Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-28-2011 10:52 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-29-2011 3:15 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 1801 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 8 of 297 (621810)
06-29-2011 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chuck77
06-29-2011 2:46 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
gee Chuck, i dont know why you apologised. That was the start of a great answer.

I did have a much more in depth question, part of a series of questions but I had trouble getting through the adminstrator. So i shortened it to the smallest amount of info i could.

I have no desire to "point and laugh" at anyones theories.

That is a poor method of debating. It does not prove anything and shows little respect for your opponent.

I also dont want to "force" anyone to come up with a theory.

Your second paragraph gets to the crux of the problem for me. The majority of the debates I read about evolutionary theory are based on attacks on sections of theories. This is fair enough. With science, if you are not questioning your work, then you are not doing it right. However, the same targeted analysis is all but impossible as there is no opposing theory. A lot of people direct the discussion towards the fields that they find they can argue about. eg. ID, the Great Flood etc.

What I am looking for is the opposing set of scientific theories. There seem to be a lot of creation scientists out there, but no body of work I can view as an alternative theory or set of theories. Particularly with relation to the creation of the universe and the creation of the earth, its residents and the systems that support life here.

I have no issue with theories that sound wild or implausible. I am sure that when the first person drew a dinosaur from the bones collected he/she was a bit reluctant to show anyone. The first proponents of germ theory probably sounded a bit nuts when they said that there were invisible little animals everywhere that could make you sick.

I am a research scientist. When i am given a problem, i look for the current bodies of work that are being done to resolve the problem. With the issues of creation, there seems to be one body of scientific work (and associated internal debates) but no other alternative theories. I figured that the best chance I had was with the Christian creationists as they have a lot of people debating in the field. There is also the scientoligists but i dont know if i am properly equipped to debate with them.

I, as a scientist am totally open to having my mind changed by alternate theories when they are supported and I can understand them. The problem is that I cant find the alternate theories.

a bit of background - I was brought up Catholic, my father is Jewish, my stepfather is an athiest and my brother is Taoist (we have a complicated family).

The best you have is great start. It will give me a place to start reading.

Thanks again


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Chuck77, posted 06-29-2011 2:46 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 3:44 AM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 17 by Son, posted 06-29-2011 9:01 AM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 46 by Minority Report, posted 06-30-2011 8:54 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 297 (621814)
06-29-2011 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Butterflytyrant
06-29-2011 3:15 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
You're not going to get much more in this thread other than:

'God said so; and so it was'. Anything else is contraindicated by the Bible.

Or you're going to get a bunch of replies playing devil's advocate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-29-2011 3:15 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-29-2011 4:01 AM Larni has responded

    
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 1801 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 10 of 297 (621816)
06-29-2011 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Larni
06-29-2011 3:44 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
Hello Larni,

I do expect that from a lot of replies (if I get a lot of replies anyway).

My hope is that the replies I get do one of two things.

1. If the reply is "God said so, God did it" etc with no explanation at all, it will point out that whatever creation science the poster has used is not science at all. This should help with several current debates where individuals have said that they have reached their poition through scientific reasoning or study.

2. If the reply does have a theory of some sort, then this theory can be debated upon with the same analytical manner as any other theory.

If creationists want to put forward a position based on science, they will need to back it up. The same rules need to apply to anyone.

I believe that if they can come up with some workable theories, it will help support their positions. I dont see any reason they would not do it.

At this point, Chuck77's answer has the basis for a theory of the mechanics of one part of the Genesis story.

I would like to see the creationists work up the rest of Genesis in the same, but more developed manner.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 3:44 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 4:30 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 11 of 297 (621817)
06-29-2011 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Butterflytyrant
06-29-2011 4:01 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
Well, good luck with that, but if you get replies such as:

Chuck writes:

(again im just amusing you, it's not scientific, so don't ask me to prove it, I can't)

I can't see things going far. We have science and religious forums here for a reason (and this is why sometimes, some posters get banded from the science side because they repeatedly fail to produce evidence).

That said, if Chuck could produce some evidence for the Holy Spirit (or even some basis for belief that it is the Holy Spirit that is the mechanism [I don't know enough about xian theology to debate that] of action it would be a very good start.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-29-2011 4:01 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

    
Minority Report
Member (Idle past 532 days)
Posts: 66
From: N.S.W Australia
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 12 of 297 (621818)
06-29-2011 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Butterflytyrant
06-28-2011 10:52 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
Hi Butterflytyrant,

Please supply the scientific theory of how God created light when he said "let there be light".

This question in it's current form is impossible to answer. Creationists believe that this universe & everything in it was supernaturally created by God out of nothing. So asking for a testable, repeatable scientific theory based on 'natural laws' to explain a 'supernatural creation' (in which these very laws were created), is entirely missing the creationists point.

Believing in a supernatural creation however does not make creation scientific theories impossible. Creationists can form scientific theories about the nature of light, fitting within a creation framework, such as how it could have seemingly travelled millions of light years in a 6000year old universe. Creationists formulate theories based on the presupposition of creation, just as evolutionists formulate theories on the presupposition of naturalism.

So perhapps you need to rephrase the question. Any question asking for a scientific theory of 'how' God created is pointless, as it involves the supernatural and is not testable & therefore no scientific theory can be formulated. If instead you ask 'If God did create light 6000 years ago, then how can we see distant starlight', then creationist may be able to formulate testable theories which can be debated here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-28-2011 10:52 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 5:30 AM Minority Report has responded
 Message 231 by IamJoseph, posted 08-02-2011 7:27 AM Minority Report has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 13 of 297 (621820)
06-29-2011 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Minority Report
06-29-2011 4:46 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
. If instead you ask 'If God did create light 6000 years ago, then how can we see distant starlight', then creationist may be able to formulate testable theories which can be debated here.

What you will get here is that the Xian god created light with the appearance of age to fool us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Minority Report, posted 06-29-2011 4:46 AM Minority Report has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Minority Report, posted 06-29-2011 5:47 AM Larni has responded

    
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 14 of 297 (621821)
06-29-2011 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Butterflytyrant
06-28-2011 10:52 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
Please supply the scientific theory of how God created light when he said "let there be light".

Please include the testable elements of the process by which light was created.

include evidence supporting this theory.

Why would you imagine there would, or could, be such a thing? I mean, the whole frickin' point of God is that he's supernatural. You can't empirically test the supernatural. At best, you can look for the results of the supernatural act - i.e. we should see evidence of the flood - but, in the case of "let there be light" that light is long gone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Butterflytyrant, posted 06-28-2011 10:52 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
Minority Report
Member (Idle past 532 days)
Posts: 66
From: N.S.W Australia
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 15 of 297 (621823)
06-29-2011 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Larni
06-29-2011 5:30 AM


Re: Scientific theory of Genesis
Hi Larni,

What you will get here is that the Xian god created light with the appearance of age to fool us.

A bit presumtuous and not really helpfull. There are a few actual scientific theories on this topic, but I'll wait for Butterflytyrant to lead which direction to go on this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 5:30 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 06-29-2011 5:58 AM Minority Report has not yet responded
 Message 236 by IamJoseph, posted 08-02-2011 7:46 AM Minority Report has not yet responded

    
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