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Author Topic:   Information Theory and Intelligent Design.
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 91 of 102 (385541)
02-15-2007 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rob
02-15-2007 10:03 PM


Re: waste of time...
actually, the beginning was a total lack of words. words are a contruct of man. in the beginning (shortly after the big bang) there wasn't even full out atoms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 10:03 PM Rob has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 92 of 102 (385547)
02-16-2007 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rob
02-15-2007 8:36 PM


another day, another grand exit
Rob:
I am trying to recruit the unrepentant.
Then you need a new quote for your file.
quote:
It doesn't matter whether you're selling Jesus, or Buddha, or civil rights, or how to make money in real estate with no money down. That doesn't make you a human being. It makes you a marketing rep.
If you want to talk to somebody honestly, as a human being, ask him about his kids. Find out what his dreams are. Just to find out. For no other reason. Because as soon as you lay your hands on a conversation to steer it, it's not a conversation anymore. It's a pitch. And you're not a human being. You're a marketing rep.
- Roger Rueff, The Big Kahuna
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 8:36 PM Rob has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 93 of 102 (385554)
02-16-2007 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rob
02-15-2007 10:03 PM


Re: waste of time...
Rob writes:
The second is incorrect. 'In the beginning was the Word'. And God puts those words in our mouths. If He does not, then the last half is also true.
They do not respect the Word. The truth is chaff to them. Straw is more real and as useless against them. They laugh at swords and arrows.
You talk like a KJV in the shape of a human being. Have you ever read any other books besides the Bible?
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 10:03 PM Rob has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 94 of 102 (385561)
02-16-2007 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rob
02-15-2007 10:03 PM


Re: waste of time...
Rob,
I want to implore you one more time to please post on topic in this thread. Take up the issue of whether meaning should really be held separate from information. Discuss specified complexity. Read up on information theory at science sites around the Internet (see Information theory - Wikipedia for a start).
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : board => Internet

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 Message 90 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 10:03 PM Rob has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 102 (385674)
02-16-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Rob
02-15-2007 8:00 PM


Perceptions of Reality
Such a scene is absolutism, condemning absolutism. It is mankind killing the very thing that is the essence of his humanity.
Look in the mirror Rob, for what you say about others applies in spades to you. How do you know that YOU are not the blind one?
What we have here is a problem in perceptions of reality. The question to you is how do you validate your perceptions?
Let us discuss this on a thread dedicated to this problem - Perceptions of Reality
quote:
To begin with, I don't think it is possible in the slightest for two people to have exactly the same set of beliefs and knowledge, we are all a little different from anyone else and sometimes a lot different from some others. We are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand.
The real question is how does one's personal view relate to {reality}, and how can we determine that (IF we can determine that)?
How do you validate one person's perceptions of truth versus another's?
See you there eh? Message 157
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 8:00 PM Rob has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 96 of 102 (385692)
02-16-2007 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rob
02-15-2007 10:03 PM


Re: waste of time...
Rob writes:
The first sentance of your advice is valid. I bow to it respectfully.
And you pay homage with your lips, and not with your deeds. Where have you actually posted in your own words so we can see that you have in your heart the words which you must always have on your lips?
The second is incorrect. 'In the beginning was the Word'. And God puts those words in our mouths. If He does not, then the last half is also true.
If God wants you to be a prophet, you must speak to the age. If you quote scripture, you are a preacher.
They do not respect the Word. The truth is chaff to them. Straw is more real and as useless against them. They laugh at swords and arrows.
Truth is chaff, straw is real but useless? How is truth/straw useless?
But if you use your own words, they have won as well. It is brick instead of stone. I do not mean the words (and neither does scripture), I mean the ideas. Contradiction vs Non. 'A kingdom divided cannot stand'.
So, if I am forced to use my own words to talk about God, 'someone' has won? Poor world.
How do you talk to your wife? Your co-workers, etc? Do you speak in parables? Do you have a scripture quote over breakfast?
Just be real, for God's sake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 10:03 PM Rob has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 97 of 102 (385767)
02-17-2007 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rob
02-15-2007 10:03 PM


Science as Leviathan
Rob:
The truth is chaff to them. Straw is more real and as useless against them. They laugh at swords and arrows.
Leviathan. Job 41.
Interesting image, Rob.
Leviathan is an unassailable creature. A creature God uses to put the proud in their place. A creature the wise respect.

Will it speak soft words to you?
Will it make a covenant with you
to be taken as your servant for ever?
Will you play with it as with a bird,
or will you put it on a leash for your girls?
Will traders bargain over it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
Can you fill its skin with harpoons,
or its head with fishing-spears?
Lay hands on it;
think of the battle; you will not do it again!
Any hope of capturing it will be disappointed;
were not even the gods overwhelmed at the sight of it?
No one is so fierce as to dare to stir it up.
Who can stand before it?
Who can confront it and be safe?
”under the whole heaven, who?
...
When it raises itself up the gods are afraid;
at the crashing they are beside themselves.
Though the sword reaches it, it does not avail,
nor does the spear, the dart, or the javelin.
It counts iron as straw,
and bronze as rotten wood.
The arrow cannot make it flee;
slingstones, for it, are turned to chaff.
Clubs are counted as chaff;
it laughs at the rattle of javelins...
On earth it has no equal,
a creature without fear.
It surveys everything that is lofty;
it is king over all that are proud.
This is how science appears to you after you attempt to contest it?
I well believe it. You preach to yourself well.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 10:03 PM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by kuresu, posted 02-17-2007 12:35 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 98 of 102 (385770)
02-17-2007 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Archer Opteryx
02-17-2007 12:28 AM


Re: Science as Leviathan
wait . . .so the purpose of science . . .is to . . .put down . . .the proud?
wierd. maybe that's why they hated the idea of heliocentric solar system and now hate old earth and evolution. they were wrong on all accounts, and science is telling them that they are. and they don't like it one bit. wierd.
somehow, I never pictured science as a summon that launched tidal waves at its enemies.*
*i have square-enix for this picture to thank--in ever final fantasy game, just about, there is a summon called leviathan who does water damage to enemies.
ABE:
don't pay any attention to this post. it's the ramblings of a boy-man who's just putting pieces together in wierd ways.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-17-2007 12:28 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-17-2007 2:43 AM kuresu has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 99 of 102 (385780)
02-17-2007 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by kuresu
02-17-2007 12:35 AM


Re: Science as Leviathan
kuresu:
wait . . .so the purpose of science . . .is to . . .put down . . .the proud?
wierd. maybe that's why they hated the idea of heliocentric solar system and now hate old earth and evolution. they were wrong on all accounts, and science is telling them that they are. and they don't like it one bit. wierd.
somehow, I never pictured science as a summon that launched tidal waves at its enemies.
Rob admits that his 'truth' feels flimsy and useless to him right now. No doubt the feeling is accurate.
I hope he takes the advice given in Job: remember the encounter. It would be stupid to keep repeating it.
But you make an excellent point. Science is hardly a monster just because some people feel scorched.
Phat shared an interesting experience with Rob on another thread. He said he learned that science shows him windmills where he had been taught to see dragons.
Science is a practical thing. It only looks like a dragon if you try to wage war on it with a javelin made of toothpick and a shield made of tissue paper. It's wildly unrealistic to think you're going to march into a forest with three quotes from the likes of Dembski and, armed only with that, beat up all the natural sciences. The mission is suicide. All the bravado in the world can't cover this.
It's never a pleasant experience to learn one has been sold a bill of goods. Yet this discussion makes it obvious to me that those ID statements were never even meant to pass muster with scientists. They were intended for the ears of lay persons--people with prefab ideas who just want reassurance in a plausibly scientific-looking package.
There's a reason why these same ID people did a disappearing act last year when summoned to court to show their math. It's the same reason Rob now considers doing a disappearing act here.
Rob, as usual, takes the unpleasantness of his learning experience personally. He views it as persecution. Things won't improve until he stops equating any poorly understood argument or flimsy idea with a silver bullet called 'absolute truth.' Clarity starts with owning one's own ideas. Reality never has an obligation to cooperate.
Will we ever see this kind of clarity from Rob? I rather doubt it. But time will tell.
__
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : tinkering.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by kuresu, posted 02-17-2007 12:35 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by anastasia, posted 02-17-2007 4:54 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 100 of 102 (385859)
02-17-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Archer Opteryx
02-17-2007 2:43 AM


Re: Science as Leviathan
Archer Opterix writes:
This discussion makes it obvious that those ID statements were never even meant to pass muster with scientists. They were only intended for the ears of lay persons--people with prefab ideas who are just looking for reassurance in a plausibly scientific-looking package.
That is one of the good points about EvC, especially since it possesses career scientists amoung its membership. Many people will never have the information needed to sort through the pre-fab sciency looking stuff and really know what is plausible and what isn't. I for one, in lieu of accepting a particular theory, adapt a sort of nonchalance towards all of them because I acknowledge that I don't have the ability to know a good theory from a poor one. Forums like this help to fill the gaps in knowledge by looking at things from many perspectives at once.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-17-2007 2:43 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Nighttrain, posted 02-17-2007 11:33 PM anastasia has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 101 of 102 (385902)
02-17-2007 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by anastasia
02-17-2007 4:54 PM


Re: Science as Leviathan
Lots of great stuff in the archives, Anastasia, if you have the time to peruse

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by anastasia, posted 02-17-2007 4:54 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 102 of 102 (385903)
02-17-2007 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Nighttrain
02-17-2007 11:33 PM


Re: Science as Leviathan
Nughttrain writes:
Lots of great stuff in the archives, Anastasia, if you have the time to peruse
Thanks Nighttrain, I do try to make time. Even if I don't grasp it all I pick things up which may be useful as building blocks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Nighttrain, posted 02-17-2007 11:33 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
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