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Author Topic:   If ID is taught in public schools, Dependent Origination must also be
Enochian
Junior Member (Idle past 2044 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 07-07-2011


Message 1 of 26 (623521)
07-07-2011 5:24 PM


If ID is taught in public schools, Dependent Origination must also be taught as it explains how things arise WITHOUT an intelligent agent.

Everything exists as thoughtforms merely designated upon causes and conditions. This applies to yourself, deities, time, the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself.

Since each cause is actually an effect of a previous cause, there is no first cause or beginning. Causality is an impersonal law of the universe, just as gravitation is.

In fact an intelligent agent is specifically ruled out because it is is not possible for some indepedent, uncaused "thing" to interact with our dependently originated universe. It would be like trying to run Microsoft Windows on a paper book. Utterly incompatible.

Edited by Enochian, : clarified my point

Edited by Enochian, : typo

Edited by Enochian, : clarification

Edited by Enochian, : rephrase

Edited by Enochian, : No reason given.

Edited by Enochian, : No reason given.

Edited by Enochian, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by Iblis, posted 07-12-2011 4:37 PM Enochian has not yet responded

    
Admin
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Posts: 12504
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Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 2 of 26 (623522)
07-08-2011 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Enochian
07-07-2011 5:24 PM


Hi Enochian, welcome to EvC!

I don't think we've ever promoted a one sentence topic proposal. Could you flesh this out by explaining what "Dependent Origination and Mādhyamaka" is, and then outlining your arguments for why including ID in public schools would require including it also.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Enochian
Junior Member (Idle past 2044 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 07-07-2011


Message 3 of 26 (623523)
07-10-2011 11:57 PM


how about now?

Edited by Enochian, : No reason given.


    
Admin
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Message 4 of 26 (623524)
07-11-2011 7:52 AM


Wikipedia Reference
To assist participants, here's a link to the Wikipedia article on dependent origination, a Buddhist philosophy also known as Pratītyasamutpāda.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Admin
Director
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Message 5 of 26 (623526)
07-11-2011 7:52 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the If ID is taught in public schools, Dependent Origination must also be thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 6 of 26 (623543)
07-11-2011 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Enochian
07-07-2011 5:24 PM


Everything exists as a thoughtform imposed upon causes and conditions.

Before we get off the ground here, please provide evidence to support this assertion.


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Iblis
Member (Idle past 1307 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 7 of 26 (623696)
07-12-2011 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Enochian
07-07-2011 5:24 PM


because?
Hi! Welcome to the poop toss.

Would it be correct to sum up your proposition as the demand that if "Intelligent Design" (the JC creation myth) were to be taught in schools, than equal time should be given to the Buddhist equivalent?

The part of "dependent origination" that is actually in context in science class is already taught, you know. It is known as causality, there's normally a short lecture about cause and effect before one digs into Newton or Galileo.


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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1780 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 8 of 26 (623744)
07-13-2011 4:20 AM


Its not about equal time to every idea.
Its about the right of the people acting through the legislature to demand that what they see as true or a option for truth on common and important ideas be given time or equal time.
Creationism is founded on historic and popular and presently popular ideas on God or Genesis being the truth of origins.
Creationism is well done and famous.

other ideas are worthless or obscure and not supported by any number of people relative to our countries populations.

let freedom decide the merits of any ideas.
End censorship.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 26 (623745)
07-13-2011 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Robert Byers
07-13-2011 4:20 AM


So you are saying what people believe is more important that cold hard facts?

That's crazy talk.


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CogitoErgoSum
Junior Member (Idle past 2048 days)
Posts: 13
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 04-15-2011


Message 10 of 26 (623746)
07-13-2011 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Robert Byers
07-13-2011 4:20 AM


Robert Byers writes:

other ideas are worthless or obscure and not supported by any number of people relative to our countries populations.

End censorship.

not sure these two ideas support each other !

If you end censorship, then all ideas are worthy, whether obscure or not.

What you really mean is, you want YOUR particular brand of creationism because that's what YOU believe.

Just because something is popular doesn't make it right, and just because something is right doesn't make it popular.


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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1601 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 11 of 26 (623804)
07-13-2011 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Robert Byers
07-13-2011 4:20 AM


Creationism is founded on historic and popular and presently popular ideas on God or Genesis being the truth of origins.
Creationism is well done and famous.

That may be true, but where is any evidence that anything in Genesis has any basis of fact? Creationism is a belief not science. Science deals in evidence not faith. One can believe that rainbows only existed after the Noachin Flood, whereas science can show that that would defy the laws of physics. The storyteller of this story knew not what caused a rainbow. Also something being famous sheds no light on the reality of such. There are many stories that are famous but totally without any evidence of reality ie: Harry Potter, Superman, Hercules, Samson etc.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 12 of 26 (623807)
07-13-2011 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Robert Byers
07-13-2011 4:20 AM


Its about the right of the people acting through the legislature to demand that what they see as true or a option for truth on common and important ideas be given time or equal time.

The government does not have the right to violate the rights of the people as defined in the Constitution. It has been ruled, several times, that public schools can not teach religious belief as science in the science classroom. It doesn't matter how important people may feel. It is a violation of constitutional rights to force religious teachings onto children in the guise of science at public schools that are funded with public tax dollars.

At the same time, no one is stopping people from expressing their support of creationism outside of public schools. No one is stopping preachers from pushing creationism during Sunday School or as part of a sermon. No one is stopping creationists from publishing books that support creationism.

Creationism is founded on historic and popular and presently popular ideas on God or Genesis being the truth of origins.
Creationism is well done and famous.

Creationism is founded on religious belief. It is not science. Therefore, it is not appropriate for science class in public schools. However, it would be appropriate in a Comparitive Religions course if one were offered in a public school. Would you be in support of this idea?


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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 1780 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 13 of 26 (623968)
07-15-2011 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taq
07-13-2011 3:00 PM


Creationism is founded on the intelligence of people now and in the past that the bible and natural evidence support our ideas.
Also evidence for evolution is not there.
to deny creationism is to deny religion as true by your reasoning.
This is illegal for the state to do in America.

Where origins are taught should the truth be taught.
censorship either means the truth can't be taught of the side censored is wrong.
again a state opinion without authority to make it and illegal.


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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1601 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 14 of 26 (623973)
07-15-2011 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Robert Byers
07-15-2011 1:28 AM


No one is denying religion. The point is religion is not science.
Creationism is religion, not science. The Genesis creations stories are myths, created by primitive peoples, to explain the unexplainable.
Religion can be taught as religion, it just cannot be taught in science classes any more than astrology, alchemy, magic, superstitions are not taught in science classes, since they are not science.

What natural evidence supports your ideas?

Where origins are taught should the truth be taught.

Yes, which is why evolution, the big bang and other evidence based scientific theories are taught in science classes.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Robert Byers, posted 07-15-2011 1:28 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 15 of 26 (624014)
07-15-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Robert Byers
07-15-2011 1:28 AM


Creationism is founded on the intelligence of people now and in the past that the bible and natural evidence support our ideas.

Then creationists should be presenting this evidence to scientists in the arena of science. They aren't. Until this happens then creationism can not be considered scientific, and that only leaves its religious underpinnings.

to deny creationism is to deny religion as true by your reasoning.

No one is denying creationism. What we are saying is that creationism is not scientific, and is therefore inappropriate for a public school science class. Creationism would fit in nicely in a World Religions course if one were offered.

Where origins are taught should the truth be taught.

We aren't talking about origins class. We are talking about science class.

censorship either means the truth can't be taught of the side censored is wrong.

The government is necessarily censored in what it can say. Teachers in public schools are not allowed to endorse a political candidate as part of their teaching duties, as another example. We, as a nation, have decided that people in the pay of the government should respect the citizen's religious and political freedoms by staying out of the discussion.

If you want to claim that creationism is truth then that's fine. Have at it. It is not the business of the government to decide which religious views are true and which are not. What I will argue against is that creationism is science, which it isn't.


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