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Author Topic:   Subjective Evidence of Gods
Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 13 of 468 (624421)
07-17-2011 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by GDR
07-17-2011 6:41 PM


GDR writes:
We exist as sentient beings in a world that appears to be made ready for us.
This is only true if you ignore the fact that most of the planet's surface is unsuitable for us to live on and the comparatively small amount of land that we can live on is filled with innumerable deadly threats.
But other than that - sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 6:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 10:23 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 30 of 468 (624482)
07-18-2011 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
07-17-2011 10:23 PM


GDR writes:
Ya, but we struggle on. Nobody said it was going to be easy.
Then you undermine your own argument.
The world does not appear to be ready for us.
Instead, we have had to hammer it into a suitable shape.
And considering how many years the world did not even have human life - it would appear that we are barely an 'afterthought' in the history of this planet - and barely a 'blip' in the history of the universe.
Comparing:
15,000,000,000 years since the universe 'began'.
4,500,000,000 years since the Earth was formed.
2,500,000,000 years since life appeared on Earth.
200,000 years since modern man started populating the Earth.
And I'll avoid listing the sizeable number of mistakes that were made, if this world was made ready for us...
Edited by Panda, : tyops
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 07-17-2011 10:23 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 07-18-2011 11:09 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 35 of 468 (624508)
07-18-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
07-18-2011 11:09 AM


GDR writes:
The subjective evidence is that we continue to survive, and even thrive, so in spite of the fact that you perceive what you consider mistakes, the positive obviously far outweigh the negatives.
If your criteria for 'created ready for humans' is: "it hasn't completely wiped us out" then you have incredibly low expectations from a god.
Considering how many billions of humans have died from viral infections, bacterial infections, diseases, earthquakes, volcanoes, animal attacks, etc, etc, etc...
I see very little reason to think that this earth was created 'for' us.
People complain about the actions of religion and politics and racism - but the real killer is the world will live on.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 07-18-2011 11:09 AM GDR has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 78 of 468 (624915)
07-20-2011 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Mazzy
07-20-2011 4:45 PM


Re: Subjective Evidence of Gods
Mazzy writes:
Earth is the lucky planet. So far, in this universe filled with the so called seeds of life, water flying about in comets everywhere, not so much as a bacteria or algae has been found anywhere in the universe.
As a percentage: how much of the universe have we searched?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Mazzy, posted 07-20-2011 4:45 PM Mazzy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by AZPaul3, posted 07-20-2011 6:09 PM Panda has replied
 Message 87 by Mazzy, posted 07-21-2011 4:33 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 83 of 468 (624949)
07-20-2011 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by AZPaul3
07-20-2011 6:09 PM


Re: Subjective Evidence of Gods
AZPaul3 writes:
about .000000000000000000000000000000007% give or take a couple orders of magnitude.
*nods*
I suspect that Mazzy will not understand that the little we know about the universe's contents means that it is impossible to discern if "Earth is the lucky planet" or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by AZPaul3, posted 07-20-2011 6:09 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 90 of 468 (625176)
07-21-2011 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Mazzy
07-21-2011 4:33 PM


Re: Subjective Evidence of Gods
Mazzy writes:
The answer is irrelevant. Right here in our solar system there are 4 terrestrail planets that were equally as inhospitable.
It is not irrelevant - and there is only one terrestrial planet.
If every single solar system has a habitable planet populated with life-forms, then what would make Earth so lucky?
Millions and millions of planets, all teeming with life.
Earth would not be special or lucky - just one of many.
So - how many habitable planets are in this galaxy?
If you can't answer this, then how can you say how lucky the earth is.
Also, do you know the odds of life existing on this planet...?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Mazzy, posted 07-21-2011 4:33 PM Mazzy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Chuck77, posted 07-22-2011 1:10 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 98 of 468 (625300)
07-22-2011 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Chuck77
07-22-2011 1:10 AM


Re: Subjective Evidence of Gods
Chuck77 writes:
Pretty good, it seems. 100%, it appears.
I was waiting for Mazzy to say it was 0.00000000001%...
Chuck77 writes:
Life could be on other planets. It would seem if we never find any it's possible "subjective" evidence for god(s) since we're the only ones, fo far.
Correct, but I would want to do a little more searching than just 1 solar system.
Chuck77 writes:
It can't be answered, but we can go with what we can observe, which is, so far it's only us.
We can also observe that we have not looked at much of the universe.
But you are correct: it can't be answered (even though you then go on to try and answer it).
If your idea of good evidence is searching 0.0000000000000001% of the universe and then saying: "We are the only life, therefore we are special!", then I would accuse you of some kind of confirmation bias where you happily ignore the fact that we have barely even looked.
I would not want you investigating a murder...
"We don't think there has been a murder as we looked in our front garden and can't find a dead body. Case closed."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Chuck77, posted 07-22-2011 1:10 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 111 of 468 (625624)
07-24-2011 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by GDR
07-24-2011 3:44 PM


Re: Track Record Isn't the Point
GDR writes:
But you are just describing how beautifully the system works. It just has to occur to you that something that works so well has at least the appearance of being designed.
Looking 'like' something does not actually make it something.
I had a friend that looked exactly like Avril Lavigne - but she wasn't her.
GDR writes:
Frankly to think that something as beautiful as that can have come about from a non-intelligent source stretches belief further than I can go.
Argument from incredulity
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by GDR, posted 07-24-2011 3:44 PM GDR has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 162 of 468 (626892)
07-31-2011 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Straggler
07-31-2011 6:29 PM


Re: Last Words
I would just like to thank both you and GDR for an interesting and well-mannered (even if slightly long-winded) discussion.
(No sarcasm intended)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2011 6:29 PM Straggler has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 165 of 468 (628175)
08-07-2011 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Chuck77
08-07-2011 7:30 AM


Re: Subjective evidence to you
Chuck77 writes:
I told YOU before that I was healed from using prayers from the bible. Using words from the Bible to speak to my circumstances.
So, if you honestly and reverently prayed for healing, but did not use prayers from the bible, then god would have refrained from healing you?
I doubt you believe that is true.
Lady: "Please, heavenly father: save my child from the hurricane!"
God: "You didn't quote from the bible - so, no."
Surely, it is the person praying (and what they are praying for) that is important, not the actual words of the prayers?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Chuck77, posted 08-07-2011 7:30 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 223 of 468 (630230)
08-23-2011 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by GDR
08-23-2011 12:01 AM


Re: Detecting Intelligent Agency Where There Is None
GDR writes:
You have no idea of how badly I wish I had thought of that. Brilliant.
Do think that we can say something exists because we can't test for it?
Do you think that every single idea that anyone imagines is validated because we can't test for it?
This seems like you are now in a position that all supernatural beings are equally un-testable and are therefore equally likely to exist. (This would include the FSM.)

Always remember: Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by GDR, posted 08-23-2011 12:01 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2011 1:16 PM Panda has replied
 Message 231 by GDR, posted 08-23-2011 7:54 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 227 of 468 (630274)
08-23-2011 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Straggler
08-23-2011 1:16 PM


Re: Detecting Intelligent Agency Where There Is None
Straggler writes:
We cannot test for any of these. But I would suggest that we can still be pretty damn sure (albeit philosophically uncertain) of their existence.
I agree.
But it seems that GDR liked the argument put forward by RADZ regarding not disbelieving in things that can't even be tested for.
It seemed that GDR was moving towards thinking that a complete lack of evidence was enough to make something possible.

Always remember: Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2011 1:16 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2011 1:50 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 237 of 468 (630352)
08-24-2011 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by RAZD
08-23-2011 9:48 PM


Re: Detecting Intelligent Agency Where There Is None
RAZD writes:
Note that there seems to be an implicit need to reach a decision here on all these concepts, that you somehow MUST choose existence or non-existence.
Note that you are wrong.

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2011 9:48 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Chuck77, posted 08-25-2011 12:22 AM Panda has replied
 Message 263 by RAZD, posted 08-26-2011 8:20 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 247 of 468 (630437)
08-25-2011 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Chuck77
08-25-2011 12:22 AM


Re: Detecting Intelligent Agency Where There Is None
Chuck77 writes:
Im a #1. It's unreasonable but that's what I am.
But you aren't #1 in regard to other gods - just your chosen version of the christian god, yes?
I expect you to be a #7 in relation to other gods. To paraphrase: You know there is no other God.
Unreasonable, indeed.
Chuck77 writes:
Where are you on the Dawkins scale Panda? and why?
#6.99999
quote:
De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
Why? Because I have seen no evidence for any gods - but I realise that it is theoretically possible for some evidence to be found, sometime in the future.
Chuck77 writes:
Do you think there is more or less evidence for gods?
Compared to?

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Chuck77, posted 08-25-2011 12:22 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Chuck77, posted 08-26-2011 6:58 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 280 of 468 (630944)
08-29-2011 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Chuck77
08-26-2011 6:58 AM


Re: Detecting Intelligent Agency Where There Is None
Chuck77 writes:
All way don't lead to the truth. One truth, One God.
But you chose a different god to all the other religions - despite there being no reason to pick your god over any of the others.
Chuck77 writes:
Umm, compared to no god(s)?
There is no evidence for a lack of gods, per se.
There is a huge amount of evidence that we make up gods - but that it not exactly the same.
I also see no evidence for the existence of gods.
So, I think the answer to your question: "Do you think there is more or less evidence for gods?" is: "No, I don't."
Chuck77 writes:
Subjective evidence, do you feel there is a good amount of subjective evidence for god(s) that you could invest time in that would someday lead you to a realization that a god exists?
I see no reason to value subjective evidence highly - but you claim it is convincing.
Do you think that I should believe your subjective evidence over a muslim's subjective evidence?
Do you think that I should believe your subjective evidence over a hindu's subjective evidence?
Please explain why?
Chuck77 writes:
Do you even care to? Are you here to shoot down all ideas and evidence or are you willing to investigate claims people have actually made? Peoples testimony is evidence of God even if you don't agree with it.
Exactly how do I (or anybody else) investigate this testimony you refer to?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Chuck77, posted 08-26-2011 6:58 AM Chuck77 has not replied

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